[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Which policies of the SNP clash most with the Tories?
Obviously apart from Brexit and Scottish independence - I doubt the SNP are a single issue party when they're Scotland's main party.

From what I've heard hear and there, they're fairly centre-right, and (apart from independence and Brexit) nothing from the SNP would be out of place in the current Tories.

SNP are centre left not right.

Brexit issue is central to all other policies and these two are directly opposed.

You cant be in favour of brexit and vote to in fact rejoin the EU like snp promises.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

You don't understand sport, it's ok but others do

And you scored an own goal mate

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Bit rich from a died in the wool Lib Dem voter like you are

I've voted labour for the past two elections. I've pledged never again to vote for Lib Dems after they sold their souls for the coalition with the Tories. I will likely go with my gut in future and vote Green even though they have no hope of winning simply because I'm tired of trying to change the status quo. I'd rather go with Green because I often agree with their stances but considered voting for them to be a waste because this election has proved that it's a waste to vote for anything other than Tories as we have become a single party state.

See? I answered your accusation and completely demolished it, now why don't you try to solve the discrepency I've pointed out between your words and your supposed actions.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

SNP are centre left not right.

Brexit issue is central to all other policies and these two are directly opposed.

You cant be in favour of brexit and vote to in fact rejoin the EU like snp promises.

You can have any view you wish, how on earth can you tell people you can't?

Awful

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I've pledged never again to vote for Lib Dems after they sold their souls for the coalition with the Tories.

Why? That's like never voting for Labour again because of Tony Blair's war crimes. I think we all know which has been the worst!
How many Lib Dem MPs do you think will be standing in the next election who were in the Coalition even made the decision?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I care deeply about public services and the NHS and this vote has shown that most voters simply do not. There's nothing I can do now about anything but you can be sure that when the worst happens and the tory voters that allowed it to happen starts to feel the burn, I will make sure they know they did this to themselves. It's about accountability. I'm not going to hug a tory voter that's basically voted for the decimation of the public services when it happpens, I'm gonna let them know that they got what they voted for.

It would be lovely if it's all sunshine and rainbows and I'm wrong, but I'm not going to be wrong. I wasn't wrong about Brexit being a ****show, I wasn't wrong about the damage the Tories have done since Brexit and before and I won't be wrong now because I pay attention to the facts and the facts have never supported the Tories. Hopes and prayers mean jack**** when the NHS is on it's last legs, there's not enough funding for the police to effectively do their jobs and you've got people killing themselves on benefits because a system that's supposed to help them is entrapping them in a vicious cycle.



It's undemocratic to voice an opinion? Is that what you're choosing to go with? Really?

One of the few policies in the Tory manifesto is to invest in the NHS, and put police officers back on the street, the manifesto was pretty light in content so the few things they did ‘promise’ resonated with voters, they didn’t promise another 9 years of austerity, Johnson and Co very cleverly distanced themselves from the last 9 years and promised investment, so it’s not like voters voted for the status quo, plus many wanted Brexit done which only the Tories were offering

[Marsh.]

Boris hasn't quite decided where he stands on the NHS since he gives a different answer every time the question is asked. A clear sign of a good leader and not at all a sign of a dangerous liar.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There is no point in discussing anything with you, it all begins and ends with Corbyn when it comes to you to the point that his mere presence somehow makes it so that the entire public are not responsible for their own choices because it's all Corbyn's fault. Utterly ridiculous.

People made their choices based on nothing but propaganda, they gave the Tories a landslide win out of nothing but wilful ignorance. I live in Toryville despite the area being working class at heart. I've had poilitical conversations with plenty of people and it all goes the same way, they don't want to hear facts about the Tories that paint them in a bad light and they hate labour because the papers told them to. People are responsible for their own idiotic choices. Many voters chose to be ignorant and so I shall laugh in their faces when their choices bite them in the arse and they suffer the consequences for their ignorance.

Grown ass people made a terrible choice and they will hold the responsibility for that decision and you will not try to alleviate blame from them by blaming a losing party. The information was out there, the facts were damning of the Tories and people chose not to listen. They have no one to blame but themselves.

You speak of 'wiser heads' but I've yet to see anything to support that beyond 'CORBYN BAD! WE BLAME OUR BAD DECISIONS ON HIM!'. It is scapegoating pure and simple, people are responsible for their own votes and when they vote poorly they are free game for criticism.

The reason why Tories have gotten stronger since 2016 is because we are living in an age where the facts no longer matter. We live in a Trump era world where you can ignore facts that go against your beliefs and the idiot rags are becoming more like state propaganda every day. It's not a sudden thing, it didn't happen over night, it's been happening for years and this election is proof of that. People are cattle that willingly voted for the slaughterhouse.

So the area you live in has some stupid people, in your opinion, and that automatically means that the millions who voted Tory are cattle, idiots, are full of wilful ignorance and have only themselves to blame. Probably a small percentage were clueless, by that law of averages that you don't believe in.
However, one man, Corbyn, the Saint, whose job it was to win an election is completely blameless according to you and isn't responsible at all for the dodgy views he holds that worried decent people and the choices he made that led to his party failing those who supported him miserably...

That makes no sense at all, in fact your views are just childish churlishness....and the way you portray anyone who doesn't think like you do is hateful and spiteful. I just can't with you...

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Why? That's like never voting for Labour again because of Tony Blair's war crimes. I think we all know which has been the worst!
How many Lib Dem MPs do you think will be standing in the next election who were in the Coalition even made the decision?

Lib Dems have never recovered from that coalition in my eyes and every leader they've had since Clegg has been underwhelming and their policies even more so. I just don't really believe in them. The party has no direction other than stopping Brexit and I honestly can't bring myself to care about Brexit anymore. It'll happen, it'll be horrible and that's that. I'll never say never on voting Lib Dem but they've got a lot to do before I'd consider giving them my vote again.

Green has been the party I've identified most with but never could bring myself to vote for since I didn't want to waste my vote, this election convinced me that every vote that isn't for the Tory is a wasted vote so I'm better off following my heart.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

One of the few policies in the Tory manifesto is to invest in the NHS, and put police officers back on the street, the manifesto was pretty light in content so the few things they did ‘promise’ resonated with voters, they didn’t promise another 9 years of austerity, Johnson and Co very cleverly distanced themselves from the last 9 years and promised investment, so it’s not like voters voted for the status quo, plus many wanted Brexit done which only the Tories were offering

It doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for the public that they want to 'get brexit done' when by all accounts it'll be a disaster. It's just what I've been saying all along really, facts and qualified analysis does not matter to voters.

Trusting a Tory manifesto is utterly foolish considering the past nine years, the only way Boris' administration will be different is that it'll probably be even more shambolic then what came before. The fact that they scored a majority after so many screw ups is what fuels my disdain for the voting public. They are incapable of learning.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

So the area you live in has some stupid people, in your opinion, and that automatically means that the millions who voted Tory are cattle, idiots, are full of wilful ignorance and have only themselves to blame. Probably a small percentage were clueless, by that law of averages that you don't believe in.
However, one man, Corbyn, the Saint, whose job it was to win an election is completely blameless according to you and isn't responsible at all for the dodgy views he holds that worried decent people and the choices he made that led to his party failing those who supported him miserably...

That makes no sense at all, in fact your views are just childish churlishness....and the way you portray anyone who doesn't think like you do is hateful and spiteful. I just can't with you...

Does the day begin and end with Corbyn in your eyes? I haven't seen you make one post in which you haven't included him whether it makes sense to or not. You say I make him out to be a saint but I've only ever mentioned him when you've tried to shove him down my throat. Corbyn is old news, deal with the fact you're gonna have to try and find a new scapegoat to blame everything on.

You just can't accept that people made a choice and they are responsible for that choice and I can have whatever opinion I like on that choice. It's always Corbyn's fault with you and it's boring. Grown adults are responsible for their own choices and I can hold them accountable for those choices. You're the one that can't accept that view point which is why you're screaming that I'm childish when you're doing nothing but feeding your Corbyn obsession and projecting your issues onto me.

You can't blame an outside force for your own decisions, you can't shield the nation from the consequences of their actions by placing them at the feet of Corbyn. That's the difference between me and you, the Tories are scum but I don't hold them responsible for winning, it was the people that made the choice to give them a majority. The only thing a party can do is make an argument and hope for votes. The Tory arguments and manifesto reeked of bull****, had many holes poked in them by fact checkers and analysts and more yet the people still voted for them since they wanted to believe a fantasy over reality and I will continue to criticise the public for making such a poor decision because, ultimately, they made that decision, it wasn't any party or one person that won the election. The public decided, so they have to shoulder the responsibility for what they've enabled.

That viewpoint is certainly less childish than 'CORBYN IS TO BLAME FOR EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS!' so if you're gonna try and throw insults around, make sure you aren't projecting first.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Does the day begin and end with Corbyn in your eyes? I haven't seen you make one post in which you haven't included him whether it makes sense to or not. You say I make him out to be a saint but I've only ever mentioned him when you've tried to shove him down my throat. Corbyn is old news, deal with the fact you're gonna have to try and find a new scapegoat to blame everything on.

You just can't accept that people made a choice and they are responsible for that choice and I can have whatever opinion I like on that choice. It's always Corbyn's fault with you and it's boring. Grown adults are responsible for their own choices and I can hold them accountable for those choices. You're the one that can't accept that view point which is why you're screaming that I'm childish when you're doing nothing but feeding your Corbyn obsession and projecting your issues onto me.

You can't blame an outside force for your own decisions, you can't shield the nation from the consequences of their actions by placing them at the feet of Corbyn. That's the difference between me and you, the Tories are scum but I don't hold them responsible for winning, it was the people that made the choice to give them a majority. The only thing a party can do is make an argument and hope for votes. The Tory arguments and manifesto reeked of bull****, had many holes poked in them by fact checkers and analysts and more yet the people still voted for them since they wanted to believe a fantasy over reality and I will continue to criticise the public for making such a poor decision because, ultimately, they made that decision, it wasn't any party or one person that won the election. The public decided, so they have to shoulder the responsibility for what they've enabled.

That viewpoint is certainly less childish than 'CORBYN IS TO BLAME FOR EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS!' so if you're gonna try and throw insults around, make sure you aren't projecting first.

Apart from your Saint Corbyn. (bolded part).

.... and your never - ending theme is insulting those who don't agree with you over and over again.. Tory voters and Leavers are stupid, idiots, have mass ignorance, they are sheep. Always clutching their Pearls, yadda yadda.
At least my disdain is for one person for my own valid reasons, your disdain is for millions you know nothing about, other than they voted differently to you.

I certainly dislike Corbyn intensely for my own reasons, but I don't think 'he is to blame for every bad thing that happens' in the world; shouting that makes you sound like a petulant child.
I will not be looking for another 'scapegoat' as you put it, there is no - one else I dislike enough to bother - I don't have time to sit here posting much, so when I do I make it count, for me... and I wasn't shoving him down your throat - you responded to me in a post I made to someone else, which started our dialogue in the first place.

Soon, he'll be completely irrelevant, a passing has -been, shoved to the back benches he should never have left - and when he did it was to the horror of many of his Labour peers - but meanwhile I'm enjoying his utter humiliation and defeat, which was richly deserved. I'm not enjoying the disappointment of his decent Labour supporters; they deserve a new leader who isn't anything like the horror that Corbyn was.
But oh did the old goat get his comeuppance at last - in spades! Happy days!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

Apart from your Saint Corbyn. (bolded part).

.... and your never - ending theme is insulting those who don't agree with you over and over again.. Tory voters and Leavers are stupid, idiots, have mass ignorance, they are sheep. Always clutching their Pearls, yadda yadda.
At least my disdain is for one person for my own valid reasons, your disdain is for millions you know nothing about, other than they voted differently to you.

I certainly dislike Corbyn intensely for my own reasons, but I don't think 'he is to blame for every bad thing that happens' in the world; shouting that makes you sound like a petulant child.
I will not be looking for another 'scapegoat' as you put it, there is no - one else I dislike enough to bother - I don't have time to sit here posting much, so when I do I make it count, for me... and I wasn't shoving him down your throat - you responded to me in a post I made to someone else, which started our dialogue in the first place.

Soon, he'll be completely irrelevant, a passing has -been, shoved to the back benches he should never have left - and when he did it was to the horror of many of his Labour peers - but meanwhile I'm enjoying his utter humiliation and defeat, which was richly deserved. I'm not enjoying the disappointment of his decent Labour supporters; they deserve a new leader who isn't anything like the horror that Corbyn was.
But oh did the old goat get his comeuppance at last - in spades! Happy days!

Shock horror, your first sentence is about Corbyn and you're still trying to paint me as revering him as some kind of saint when I clearly say that he's old news. You are determined to push a certain narrative and it's just sad at this point. Corbyn this, Corbyn that, this conversation is a ****ing bore.

I do not even know why you're basically ranting at me about him either and quite frankly, it's weird.

You are refusing to let millions take responsibility for their own actions because you want your obsession to be held solely responsible which is foolishness. How can you call me childish in a previous post and yet believe people aren't accountable for their own decisions?

My disdain is simple and justifiable, most people that voted Tory inevitably voted against themselves and people more vulnerable then they are and they ignored plenty of red flags that told them as much because they have a weird cultish love for the Tories that borders on worship and to them, the Tories can do no wrong. I don't really blame the rich and the upper classes for voting Tory, it benefits them to do so but anyone that is working class and votes Tory is essentially taking a blade to their own wrist and watching themselves bleed. I can't stand such foolishness so I will criticise such decisions, as is my right to do so.

If you don't like that, tough ****. If it even looks like your next post is another rant about Corbyn then I won't bother reading it. I'm not enabling your obsession.

[arista]

[Ammi]

...this is a very interesting article...it’s one of many which I’ve been reading this morning ...it’s written by Francesca Newton, a freelance Jewish journalist...and it supports Dezzy’s thoughts that ‘many will vote against their own self interest’...I’m finding it fascinating because by the many articles I’ve read, it seems like it’s a common theory that has been greatly researched in the past...one of the main things that is touched on here in the article which is something that I find difficult to understand...is why so much that has been criticises and scrutinised with Corbyn...has been overlooked with Johnson....this is a man who has voiced prejudice to many section of society...and his father believes the U.K. voter as a generalisation to be illiterate ...obviously there were many voters capable of doing ‘x’ marks the spot, so all was well and good for his son...

The article...

I’m Jewish And I Fear Living In A Country Led By Boris Johnson

I’m Jewish. I’ve talked, written and thought about that fact and its implications probably more in the last two months than I expected to in my whole career.

Two years ago, being Jewish didn’t feel like a political issue. But over the course of this election, Judaism and anti-Semitism were forced into an uncomfortable political spotlight by a media and an electorate that seemed to have suddenly decided they cared very, very strongly about the wellbeing of jews.

The spotlight has been hot. While those of us who supported Labour were hurt as cases of internal anti-Semitism came to light, worse to watch by far was the co-option of Jewish concerns about Labour by the Conservatives.

To Johnson, Jewish fear presented an opportunity to pop on a cheap mask of anti-racism. You don’t need me to recount the things that the prime minister has said and written – you know about the “letterboxes” and the “picanninies”, so you know that concern for minorities isn’t really on his radar. If you need more evidence that his concern for Jews, specifically, is a farce, just think about the fact that he’s publicly aligned himself with a US president who thinks that neo-nazis carrying torches and chanting “Jews will not replace us” are “very fine people”.

Nonetheless, people were apparently convinced. Various high-ranking Jewish officials and institutions including Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis, the Jewish Chronicle and the Board of Deputies came out against Labour. The gentile public were urged to support the Jewish cause by voting Tory.

Rabbi Mirvis and the JC are entitled to their political views. They’re entitled, too, to speak them on a public platform. What they did, however, was present a homogenised picture of Jewish political sentiment, despite Jewish politics being as varied and complex as that of the rest of the nation. This homogenisation was then amplified by the mainstream press who, because of their already entrenched opposition to Corbyn, happily touted a narrative of a collective Jewish hatred of Labour.

Some of us tried to fight it. Various Jewish organisations aimed to draw attention to the ridiculous irony of Johnson characterising himself as an anti-racist option. Jews have historically been heavily involved with progressive politics, and this year was no different: left-wing Jews canvassed, published articles, wrote to newspapers. We were widely ignored.

Thanks to our community leaders and our national media, the story will stand that Jews, in the 2019 election, were decidedly in the Conservative camp.

Labour lost – spectacularly and heartbreakingly – and the consequences seem evident. Pressure on public services will continue to increase. Poverty levels will continue to rise. More people will become homeless. Multi-national corporations will continue to shirk their social and environmental responsibility. And Brexit almost definitely won’t be done by the end of 2020.

People, soon, are going to be angry, and they’ll want someone to be angry at.

Common anti-Semitic tropes revolve around Jews being rich, greedy, money-grabbers who manipulate global affairs without accountability. When Jews are depicted as unanimously supporting a party that is also generally believed to represent the rich and powerful, these tropes come all too easily to mind. A theory of Jewish conspiracy to keep the rich rich and the poor poor by blocking the first truly socialist national project in decades writes itself.

Many people who voted Conservative in this election did so against their own interests. When they come to ask themselves in whose interests they voted for, they may find an answer that seems to validate centuries-old stereotypes.

That puts Jewish existence truly in danger.

In fact, it’s already happening. Ken Livingstone was the first public figure to observe on Twitter that “the Jewish vote wasn’t very helpful” in Thursday night’s results. He was criticised widely for it, but this kind of sentiment is likely to become increasingly commonplace in coming weeks, as frustration with the new government grows.

What anti–Semitism already existed on the left will be amplified. But if the Jewish establishment look to Johnson for continued support, they will be disappointed. With the election won, it’s no longer in the Tories’ interests to feign concern about racism. Johnson’s most extreme right-wing followers are galvanised.

The reality is that British Jews’ leading figures and institutions fell shamefully easily for a false display of tolerance by a man famous for his lack of it. They have shown incredible myopia in aligning the British Jewish community with a right wing whose general disdain for minority groups does not exclude us – the opposite, in fact – and in creating a false image of a collective Jewish opposition to progressive, egalitarian political projects.

For this, regardless of personal politics, we are all going to pay the price. I wasn’t scared by the thought of a Corbyn-led government, but I am scared now.

Francesca Newton is a freelance journalist.


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/boris-john...130306832.html


...(..it’s a long article, but a very interesting read...)..

[bots]

i knew very quickly that none of the parties were going to deliver what i consider to be acceptable policy. I refused to fall into the trap of voting for the least worse option, so I actively chose not to vote. Clearly, someone has to win, but I can at least live with my own decisions

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts in here, can you all please try to stick to the topic and stop getting personal

[arista]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Deleted some posts in here, can you all please try to stick to the topic and stop getting personal

Thank you for your Hard Work
and Time.

[arista]

Yesterday
: the PM with his massive new MP's

[arista]

11:07AM
Barry Gardiner MP
is moaning and the BBCnewsHD reporter
in the studio.

But he understands
Labour can not Stop the New Brexit plans
that mean the 2020 December date
will not be extended in law.

[arista]

[Kizzy]

He's taking the piss... Let's see what happens over 100 days.

[Livia]

We will increase the National Living Wage to £10.50 by 2024 ending low pay – giving a full-time worker a £4,000 earnings boost. We will expand the National Living Wage to those over the age of 21 and we’ve confirmed the Low Pay Commission’s remit for the National Living Wage to reach two thirds of median earnings by 2024. This will give full-time workers on the National Living Wage a £4,000 income boost.

We will not to raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance throughout the lifetime of the next Parliament. This tax lock will benefit families across the country, helping them with the cost of living and ensuring they will get the full benefit of economic growth in their pay packets .

We will increase the National Insurance threshold to £9,500 next year saving 31 million people approximately £100. We will lift hundreds of thousands of people out of paying tax completely by raising the national insurance threshold from £8,632 this year to £9,500 next year. That will be a tax cut for 31 million of approximately £100 per worker

We will continue to lead the way and set high standard on workers’ rights, building on the biggest upgrade of rights for a generation. This People’s Government will create a single enforcement body to better protect and enhance rights, improve support for working parents and carers.

From Tory HQ.

The b*stards, right?

[Marsh.]

"You aint seen nothing"

No, and we won't do you blithering idiot.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Shock horror, your first sentence is about Corbyn and you're still trying to paint me as revering him as some kind of saint when I clearly say that he's old news. You are determined to push a certain narrative and it's just sad at this point. Corbyn this, Corbyn that, this conversation is a ****ing bore.

I do not even know why you're basically ranting at me about him either and quite frankly, it's weird.

You are refusing to let millions take responsibility for their own actions because you want your obsession to be held solely responsible which is foolishness. How can you call me childish in a previous post and yet believe people aren't accountable for their own decisions?

My disdain is simple and justifiable, most people that voted Tory inevitably voted against themselves and people more vulnerable then they are and they ignored plenty of red flags that told them as much because they have a weird cultish love for the Tories that borders on worship and to them, the Tories can do no wrong. I don't really blame the rich and the upper classes for voting Tory, it benefits them to do so but anyone that is working class and votes Tory is essentially taking a blade to their own wrist and watching themselves bleed. I can't stand such foolishness so I will criticise such decisions, as is my right to do so.

If you don't like that, tough ****. If it even looks like your next post is another rant about Corbyn then I won't bother reading it. I'm not enabling your obsession.

Of course people are responsible for their own actions - I have never said they weren’t - and the vast majority of people got it right and voted correctly because they had the sense to see the alternative would be disastrous for the country. My posts were as much about your awful propensity to label anyone who doesn’t think like you as vastly inferior to what you perceive as your highly superior self.
I’d much rather show my disdain of one person over and over than rant about and show my disdain for millions I know nothing about over and over again, including members of this forum, which you do.

I admitted that, by the law of averages, a small minority of people could have voted in ignorance, but you don’t believe in the law of averages and insist on mass ignorance.

Your refusal to put any blame at all on Steptoe (see what I did there), for Labours failure gives the impression you see him as a saint. As him being blameless is just ridiculous, your not - so -secret adoration is showing….
You responded to a post of mine initially, and have responded to my replies every time, your choice, so I don’t know what you are complaining about.