[Cherie]

it doesn't make sense that there would be no intelligence about how far forward the Taliban were

[Niamh.]

The fake news has already started on FB, people posting a picture of a plane load full of Afghan men saying that it was refugees landing in Ireland (where are the women and children??!!!!) an image reverse shows that it was a picture taken in 2018 of a plane landing in Afghanistan

[michael21]

From what I seen on the news its just a load of men with guns looking scared and bore not much of a life

[The Slim Reaper]

"big hearted nation"

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

It’s a war that can’t be won, America learned that with Vietnam

If the Afghan soldiers themselves won’t fight for their loved ones how is it you can ask American soldiers who have families to die in another country fighting a war that they didn’t start and a war that’s been going on hundreds of years

If you are not putting your life on the line what gives you the right to expect others to put their life on the line

Really, how silly dues your last paragraph sound.

How do YOU know I wouldn't be willing to.
Had I ever been in the armed services,like near all the veteran injured who did serve there , I'd want to keep building on any progress.
Not throw it all away.

You may be content to now see goodness knows how many citizens eventually murdered by the Taliban.
Or Afghanistan again be an area of terrorist planning activity.

I certainly don't WANT that.

Just as near All those who have served there don't either.

If it was full scale wartime and more than just those trained for warfare and occupation needed.

I'd want to do my bit there too.

Honestly, stop your judging of what I or others should do or think in order to express an opinion.
Unbelievable.

If you had your view all other members should just shut up unless they agree with you.
Or decide to leave where their opinions would be more tolerated elsewhere.

[jet]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The last American to die in Afghanistan was in February 2020

The Afghan army has lost 40,000 troops in the last few years fighting the Taliban

Biden making out the only choice was between a prolonged bloody conflict and this **** up is totally false, they could have maintained a modest presence there just the same way they still have a presence in South Korea without being involved in war there. That speech last night was one of the most shameful a president has ever made - no mention of the sacrifices made by Afghans, no sympathy for their plight, no acknowledgement of the efforts made by American allies and other countries. Just a lot of passing the buck and blaming everyone else. Then to top it all off he refuses to take any questions and then goes straight back to Camp David to continue his holiday!

Agree 100%.

[jet]

What Trump says:
“Afghanistan is the most embarrassing military outcome in the history of the United States. It didn’t have to be that way!” Trump said in a Monday statement.
“Can anyone even imagine taking out our Military before evacuating civilians and others who have been good to our Country and who should be allowed to seek refuge?” Trump added in a separate statement. “In addition, these people left topflight and highly sophisticated equipment. Who can believe such incompetence? Under my Administration, all civilians and equipment would have been removed.”
...............

We’ll never know, and I’m no fan of Trump, but at least he had good negotiating skills when it mattered and that air of fearlessness and confidence that made foreign powers think twice before acting. I never thought I’d say this, but given a choice beforehand of who to choose to handle the withdrawal, I’d have taken the chance with Trump over Biden.
Seems like all those years of keeping the worst of terrorism at bay is going to be for nothing and the world will be a more dangerous place as a result.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by jet

What Trump says:
“Afghanistan is the most embarrassing military outcome in the history of the United States. It didn’t have to be that way!” Trump said in a Monday statement.
“Can anyone even imagine taking out our Military before evacuating civilians and others who have been good to our Country and who should be allowed to seek refuge?” Trump added in a separate statement. “In addition, these people left topflight and highly sophisticated equipment. Who can believe such incompetence? Under my Administration, all civilians and equipment would have been removed.”
...............

We’ll never know, and I’m no fan of Trump, but at least he had good negotiating skills when it mattered and that air of fearlessness and confidence that made foreign powers think twice before acting. I never thought I’d say this, but given a choice beforehand of who to choose to handle the withdrawal, I’d have taken the chance with Trump over Biden.
Seems like all those years of keeping the worst of terrorism at bay is going to be for nothing and the world will be a more dangerous place as a result.

I'm not a fan of middle East intervention, as it won't achieve anything without prolonged involvement while islam is still driving things, but yeah Biden's withdrawal strategy is ridiculous, and should cost him the presidency.

[bots]

the equipment that was left behind was given to the afghan forces in order for them to protect themselves. They had no reason to take anyone out the country because they trained and funded an army and airforce of 300,000 people that should have easily been able to repel the taliban. So, as usual, trump is talking complete bollox

[user104658]

Not people STILL believing that the POTUS has direct control of any kind over **** like this .

[Beso]

He has shown what a dangerous man to have in power he is.

One who cant hold his temper, and one who had failed his first hurdle as president.

Wake up world.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

America had an agreement with the taliban to withdraw that’s why the American troops have not been killed, what do you think would happen if America went back on that agreement? American troops would be killed at every opportunity

Yes, 40 thousand Afghan troops have died, Afghanistan has a population of 38 million

Will you go and fight for the Afghan people because that’s what you expect Americans to do.

American troops have been in Afghanistan for 20 years and it’s made no difference

The low casualties predate that agreement, the country has been relatively stable the last few years with what was a much scaled back military presence from the heavy fighting days

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

When I criticised trump leaving the Kurds exposed to Turkey, you made a weird comment about thinking I was against middle east intervention. Now Biden has done his, you're suddenly against leaving our allies who've sacrificed for us. I've been consistent in being against exposing the people that have worked with us, but I'm finding your 180 a bit dizzying tbh.

All the things you found shameful about Biden you had no issue with trump, and it's really difficult, because I didn't put you in that category of right winger, but here we are.

Even now, you show absolutely zero awareness for the motions put in place by Trump and Pompeo.

I don't think it was a weird comment, more an observation on how complicated Middle Eastern affairs are and how Western governments often can't win because they're either blamed for interfering too much or blamed for not doing enough

Trump planned to withdraw as well I know but Biden has to take ownership over the actual operation where he has totally ignored advice and refused to take responsibility for what's unfolded. This **** up was not inevitable and this is not about Trump. Whether it would have unfolded the same is speculation and at least Trump actually communicated with American citizens. The contempt Biden has shown for so many different parties is like nothing I've seen in an American president

[jet]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the equipment that was left behind was given to the afghan forces in order for them to protect themselves. They had no reason to take anyone out the country because they trained and funded an army and airforce of 300,000 people that should have easily been able to repel the taliban. So, as usual, trump is talking complete bollox

Yet the prior intelligence was that the Afghan forces knew that resistance was futile and that most were ready and willing to surrender/join the Taliban rather than risk their lives and that of their families….and it was known that they weren’t being paid for their services; they were demoralised and in chaos.

[jet]

.......in April, Biden announced that the remaining three thousand U.S. troops in Afghanistan would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021. Not only did those troops depart, but so did eight thousand allied troops and eighteen thousand contractors that the Afghan forces relied upon to operate their air force and for logistical support. In recent months, the Afghan military was unable to provide vital supplies such as food and ammunition to outposts scattered around the country. Some Afghan units, particularly the elite commandos, fought hard nearly to the end. But seeing the writing on the wall, most troops chose to cut deals with the Taliban, surrender, or simply melt away rather than risk their lives for a hopeless cause.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-afg...ibans-pressure

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jet

.......in April, Biden announced that the remaining three thousand U.S. troops in Afghanistan would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021. Not only did those troops depart, but so did eight thousand allied troops and eighteen thousand contractors that the Afghan forces relied upon to operate their air force and for logistical support. In recent months, the Afghan military was unable to provide vital supplies such as food and ammunition to outposts scattered around the country. Some Afghan units, particularly the elite commandos, fought hard nearly to the end. But seeing the writing on the wall, most troops chose to cut deals with the Taliban, surrender, or simply melt away rather than risk their lives for a hopeless cause.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-afg...ibans-pressure

And that's the reality, the idea that the Afghans 'weren't prepared to fight' as Biden put it is pretty offensive to troops who have known nothing other than fighting the Taliban their whole lives

[Livia]

To be fair, the Taliban just walked into barracks, the soldiers there, armed and trained by the West, ran away.

[Zizu]

I don’t fully understand why Royal Navy Admiral Sir Ben Key has made a statement saying that UK forces aim to evacuate 6,000 people from Afghanistan !?!

Why are we telling them out intentions !!


Kinda sounds like he’s putting our forces under unnecessary danger just to score media points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Swan]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

"big hearted nation"

Leave then Slim, go live anywhere else in the world, anywhere you think will suit you better.

You can crap on this country all you like, but the fact of it is it's a decent country to live. You get plenty of opportunities and help here you wouldn't get elsewhere. Why do thousands risk their lives to get here every week? Obvious, for a chance at a good life, with plenty of help along the way.

Yeah the Tories are shady, as are most politicians. But whilst moaning all the time you forget how privileged you are to be here. Just look at the world, we have it easy here. Piss easy actually!

[Nicky91]

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/0...zens-continue/

Netherlands: MPs are returning from their summer break on Tuesday for an emergency debate on the crisis in Afghanistan and the operation to evacuate Dutch citizens from Kabul.

A military plane sent to collect the first evacuees was unable to land on Monday evening because of the chaotic scenes at Kabul’s airport. Hundreds of people are waiting to be flown to safety, including some Afghan interpreters and their families

Caretaker foreign minister Sigrid Kaag and defence minister Ank Bijleveld said in a letter to parliament that the Netherlands had agreed with the EU to help repatriate ‘a number of members of the EU delegation in Kabul and their family members.’

Around 6,000 American troops have taken control of Kabul airport in an attempt to restore order, after thousands of Afghans fearing for their lives tried to jump on board cargo planes on Monday. One German aircraft took off just before midnight, but was only able to carry seven people.

The government said it had relaxed the immigration rules for Afghan interpreters and their families so that they can enter the country with temporary travel documents, as long as the defence ministry confirms that they have worked for the Netherlands.

MPs are expected to demand answers as to why the government was so late to recognise the rapidly deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. As recently as last Tuesday the Netherlands was one of six European nations that criticised the European Commission’s plans for a moratorium on deporting Afghans whose asylum claims had been rejected.

The countries’ foreign ministers wrote to the commission to argue that suspending returns ‘sends the wrong signal’ and would ‘motivate even more Afghans to leave their homes for the EU.’

In their letter to parliament, Kaag, Bijleveld and junior justice minister Ankie Broekers-Knol said the speed of the Taliban’s takeover had taken the international community by surprise. ‘The events should prompt us to reflect and raise many questions that need to be answered in the near future.’

[bots]

Bidens speech fact checked:


'Our mission in Afghanistan was never supposed to have been nation building.'

President Biden stressed the purpose behind the US intervention in Afghanistan had "always been preventing a terrorist attack on American homeland" and "never supposed to be creating a unified centralised democracy".

This clearly contradicts his previous positions on the US objective in Afghanistan.

At the outset of the conflict in 2001 when Mr Biden was a US senator, he outlined the long-term purpose of the American military intervention, saying: "Our hope is that we will see a relatively stable government in Afghanistan, one that… provides the foundation for future reconstruction of that country."

And again, in 2003 - in another quote, tracked down by the Politico website - he said the "alternative to nation building is chaos, a chaos that churns out bloodthirsty warlords, drug traffickers and terrorists".


'I know there are concerns about why we did not begin evacuating Afghan civilians sooner. Part of the answer is some of the Afghans did not want to leave earlier, still hopeful for their country.'


The rapid transfer of power to the Taliban took many Afghans by surprise, not giving them enough time to make plans to leave the country.

However, there had been high demand for a US visa programme for those facing danger in Afghanistan and the scheme was plagued by delays.

There are an estimated 18,000 applicants stuck in the backlog, affecting thousands more of their relatives.

About half have submitted completed applications to the US chief of mission in Afghanistan and the rest are yet to supply all the correct documents.

"The backlog in the system already means it will take an Afghan applicant two to three years or more to reach safety in the US," the International Rescue Committee said.

In his speech, Mr Biden noted 2,000 Afghans and their families eligible for special immigration visas had so far been moved to the US, with more planned.

In response to the crisis, Congress has approved a bill increasing the number of visas by 8,000, and a refugee settlement scheme has been expanded.

'Afghanistan's political leaders gave up and fled the country.'



President Ashraf Ghani left the country with his aides, ahead of the Taliban advance into Kabul, despite having vowed several times to remain.

But other political leaders have remained and made public statements about doing so.

Former President Hamid Karzai, who served from 2001 to 2014, appeared in a video with his daughters, in which he said he was in Kabul and urged government forces and the Taliban to protect civilians.

Mr Karzai said all political leaders in the country would work to solve the issues peacefully and requested people to be patient.

The first Vice-President of Afghanistan, Amrullah Saleh, is also currently in the country, along with other leaders such as Ahmad Massoud, son of anti-Soviet military leader and politician Ahmad Shah Massoud.

And BBC News's Yalda Hakim has revealed the political leaders currently present in Afghanistan are forming an anti-Taliban coalition.

'The Afghan military collapsed, some time without trying to fight.'

It's true that the collapse of Afghan forces in the final few weeks of the conflict was dramatic.

However, this has to be seen in the context of the rapid, largely uncoordinated departure of international forces from the country.

When President Biden announced the withdrawal of US troops in April, eight thousand allied forces and eighteen thousand contractors who provided logistical support to the Afghan forces also left.

Afghan forces had relied heavily on these contractors and trainers over the past 20 years.

It's also worth noting that the Afghan army may have been well funded and equipped on paper, but the reality was different, often blamed on corruption and low morale.

Almost 70,000 Afghan police and military personnel have been killed fighting the Taliban in the last 20 years.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/58243158

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Swan

Leave then Slim, go live anywhere else in the world, anywhere you think will suit you better.

You can crap on this country all you like, but the fact of it is it's a decent country to live. You get plenty of opportunities and help here you wouldn't get elsewhere. Why do thousands risk their lives to get here every week? Obvious, for a chance at a good life, with plenty of help along the way.

Yeah the Tories are shady, as are most politicians. But whilst moaning all the time you forget how privileged you are to be here. Just look at the world, we have it easy here. Piss easy actually!

It shows complete intellectual frailty, when the merest hint of pointing out the BS, causes replies of "leave"

And that is all I need to say about you and your post.

[arista]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the Taliban are still a designated terrorist organisation

Yes of course
like that nation next to Israel is.



Even though China is very happy
to trade and do business with the Taliban


And Russia - also having Taliban respect.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't think it was a weird comment, more an observation on how complicated Middle Eastern affairs are and how Western governments often can't win because they're either blamed for interfering too much or blamed for not doing enough

Trump planned to withdraw as well I know but Biden has to take ownership over the actual operation where he has totally ignored advice and refused to take responsibility for what's unfolded. This **** up was not inevitable and this is not about Trump. Whether it would have unfolded the same is speculation and at least Trump actually communicated with American citizens. The contempt Biden has shown for so many different parties is like nothing I've seen in an American president

I mean, you used it as an attempted gotcha, not as the start of a discussion on the complexity of middle east policy.

I agree about Biden, but this whole thing was kicked off by trump, and the minute he released the taliban leadership, and Pompeo was doing photo ops with the new leader, it was game over.

I'm appalled at Biden and our leadership, but the wheels were set in motion a few years ago.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It shows complete intellectual frailty, when the merest hint of pointing out the BS, causes replies of "leave"

And that is all I need to say about you and your post.

Nah everyday it's the same, you moan bitch and wine about this country.

But yeah, don't address anything else in my post, nothing to say about it i guess, fact can't be argued.

Same old same old, non oppressed people trying desperately hard to be oppressed.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Swan

Nah everyday it's the same, you moan bitch and wine about this country.

But yeah, don't address anything else in my post, nothing to say about it i guess, fact can't be argued.

Same old same old, non oppressed people trying desperately hard to be oppressed.

You haven't presented any facts - like all of your recent posts, it was only about me.