[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

I think it would be better to study the serious offenders. Find out what makes them who they are. What triggers them and what made them make the leap from thinking about it of looking at it to actually doing it. This way we could pick up the early warning signs from kids who act strangely or young adults. Instead of killing someone, use them to possibly save more children from harm in the future, and intervene early if someone looks to be going that wau.

I agree with this, but the social services in this country are not up to the job, frequently leaving at risk children in the custody of useless and sometimes dangerous parents.

On the thread about the toddler being taped to the wall a lot of immature posters thought it funny to make jokes at the expense of that poor child. Now THAT sort of reaction to me is odd and inappropriate on what is clearly a Serious Debates forum, and IMO explains a lot about those people's mindsets. Ridiculing something so vile, or attempting to make light of it, merely desensitises people to its seriousness. That child, if left with parents who could do such a thing to him, is a prime candidate to grow up extremely disturbed and angry. Sadly we are now living with the results of decades of dreadful parenting and it's only going to get worse.

[joeysteele]

The above 2 comments from InOne and Angus58, really sum up this issue and debate.
One holds a possible solution to at least having some means of preventing this abuse of Children and the other highlights the consequences of just doing nothing as sadly most officialdom seems to do at present.

Some incredilble posts on this issue near all night, hopefully will make people think.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by angus58

It is ridiculous to expect anyone who has lost a child to come to a "logical" conclusion in a debate on capital punishment. There are some people who can accept the crap justice meted out to murderers, rapists and paedophiles but I'm certainly not one of them, and I have no intention of justifying myself to anyone.

Funny, I would have expected logic to be an important part of any serious debate, particularly when the killing of another person, be he/she guilty or not, can have huge repercussions on everyone that's touched by it and let me tell you - killing never heals wounds.

[joeysteele]

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by setanta

Funny, I would have expected logic to be an important part of any serious debate, particularly when the killing of another person, be he/she guilty or not, can have huge repercussions on everyone that's touched by it and let me tell you - killing never heals wounds.

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

Of course it's about logic, if the law system was based on anything but logic and facts then it'd be abused left right and center and there'd be chaos as anyone could justify any action. The Law has to be black and white and it has to be cold and impartial otherwise there's no point in it, We might as well live in anarchy.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Logic shouldn't be the issue, the 'rights' of the abused children, who likely could not speak for themselves or defend themselves,even more so if they were killed in the process or after the abuse,is what is the important and the overriding need here.

Its not just about logic, its about justice and right,but justice is not done with a few years in prison, or tagging etc.

I never said it was, but what I'm trying to convey is how killing never resolves the ills of society; it merely adds to them.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

I agree but incases of paedophiles I don't think they should ever be released. Rehabilitation is great in theory but in reality the only way to tell if a person has been rehabilitated is to send them back into to society and see if they offend again which when it comes to innocent childrens safety is not good enough imo.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Of course it's about logic, if the law system was based on anything but logic and facts then it'd be abused left right and center and there'd be chaos as anyone could justify any action. The Law has to be black and white and it has to be cold and impartial otherwise there's no point in it, We might as well live in anarchy.

Exactly. It would be a circus.

[Lee.]

To me, if a person is guilty of a horrendous crime (and is 100%, without any doubt, guilty) then I have absolutely no qualms at all about that persons life being taken from him/her. May sound callous, but that's how I feel.
I'm not saying I could actually "push the button" or whatever but if I thought that they may feel just a moment of terror ar fear, the same as they inflicted on somebody else, then nah, I'm afraid I can't be against capital punishment.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Exactly, and the idea to kill to prevent crimes is a very dangerous and slippery slope. Whos' to say a criminal won't re-offend? Who's right is it to make a snap decision on someone's future when they know nothing of it? Imprisonment's the way to go, like I've said throughout the topic. We MUST be better then the criminals we punish.

Nobody is, and quite often the offenders come from damaged homes or have an imbalance in their brains, you know? I don't believe anyone is born evil.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by happyland

To me, if a person is guilty of a horrendous crime (and is 100%, without any doubt, guilty) then I have absolutely no qualms at all about that persons life being taken from him/her. May sound callous, but that's how I feel.
I'm not saying I could actually "push the button" or whatever but if I thought that they may feel just a moment of terror ar fear, the same as they inflicted on somebody else, then nah, I'm afraid I can't be against capital punishment.

I'm sorry, but if you can't push the button yourself then I don't know what you're talking about.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by setanta

I'm sorry, but if you can't push the button yourself then I don't know what you're talking about.

What I'm talking about is I would have no problem with someone being sentenced to death.. none whatsoever.

If it were a crime that affected me like one of my children being harmed/hurt/murdered, then yes, I could push the button.. very very willingly!

[MissKittyFantastico]

Am very late adding my thoughts to this debate (a very good one may I add) and I have read through the thread and agree and disagree with some comments.

For the record I am not a parent, and God only knows how I would feel if something happened to my child if I did have one, all I can base my feelings on is how I react when I hear of cases of children being abused and murdered and it does provoke very very strong feelings of wanting to exact some sort of revenge, so I can empathise with how parents of children who have said such terrible things happen must feel.

However I don't agree that capital punishment is the answer. As others have said it doesn't take away the pain and it doesn't bring back the child that has been abused/murdered. My personal feeling is that I would want the offender locked up and the key thrown away, particularly in the cases of child abuse and peadophilia, so that other children are protected. People do need to remember/realise though that paedophilia is an ILLNESS, people don't CHOOSE to be that way and I agree with what Joe said about more studies being done to try and perhaps find some kind of cure, it may not be possible, but I think we need to try.

The main problem lies in this country in the fact that life does not mean life, and prisons are too cushy these days. I dont agree that taking away someone's freedom is punishment enough when in a lot of cases offenders have a better quality of life IN prison than they do out of it. You hear cases of people reoffending for that simple reason.

It's the justice system that's at fault here, but I don't think capital punishment is the route to go down to fix things. Two wrongs don't make a right and although I'm sure my initial reaction if something happened to a loved one of mine would be to want to kill person responsible and believe me if I was there at the time I would die to protect one of my own, I just don't believe that murder after the event is the answer.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by happyland

What I'm talking about is I would have no problem with someone being sentenced to death.. none whatsoever.

If it were a crime that affected me like one of my children being harmed/hurt/murdered, then yes, I could push the button.. very very willingly!

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by setanta

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

maybe you'd feel different if you had kids. I could very easily kill some one who abused my kids.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by setanta

And you could live with that? I couldn't.

To be honest I could live with that easier than I could live with anything happening to my children.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by happyland

To be honest I could live with that easier than I could live with anything happening to my children.

I'm talking about in the execution room, and in cold blood. Nah, that would have such an effect on you.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

maybe you'd feel different if you had kids. I could very easily kill some one who abused my kids.

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kazanne

But when something terrible happens in your family,IT DOES.

By your logic, from what we know of each other (which is very little) then I should be the most knowledgeable in this subject because my family has been a victim of violent crime. Is that right? Or does that rule only apply to you?

It's a silly statement to make as well as hugely offensive and pretentious to all but yourself.

Originally Posted by angus58

Thanks for support Kazanne, but I'm not that concerned about the opinions of the sort of people who can show compassion and forgiveness towards scum who commit the vilest of crimes, but display none of those noble and moralistic attitudes towards the victims' parents/families who quite rightly demand proper and equitable justice. Most of the time they fail to get justice because of the perverse concern for the rights, feelings and sensibilities of the criminal; rights which are placed above the rights of parents/families to see justice done. When it isn't done, it is like that child or loved one's life is diminished and less worthy than that of the person who took it. I don't find their attitude noble, moral or progressive, but just plain misguided and self indulgent.

The Human Rights Legislation is hugely flawed because as far as I'm concerned rights are not God given, they are commensurate with responsibilities towards humanity. If criminals choose to break the law to harm others, they should lose the right to invoke the law to protect themselves. You cannot have it both ways. The Act has been hugely abused by wrongdoers - what about a child's right to grow up in a society free of the risk of molestation, abuse, neglect and murder, and the right of a parent to see justice served on any scum who harmed their child?

I know a lot about how the victim's family feels in these situations Angus so I resent the first paragraph completely, just because I'm not bloodthirsty about it doesn't make me misguided. Violence won't heal a broken family and Capital Punishment will just lead to another family grieving and I wouldn't inflict that on my worst enemy. Revenge doesn't make the pain go away.

I agree that the Human Rights Legislation is flawed like all things in life but your solution isn't any better.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MissKittyFantastico

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

Yep, absolutely, I could live with it just fine.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MissKittyFantastico

But then you would be a murderer, do you think you or your kids could live with that knowledge for the rest of your lives?

Like I said I can understand why a parent would feel that way, but actually taking another person's life, do you think that's the answer in the grander scheme of things?

also, the term "murderer" is quite subjective really. Do you consider a soldier to be a murderer? they kill people who may not be half as bad as a paedophile

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

also, the term "murderer" is quite subjective really. Do you consider a soldier to be a murderer? they kill people who may not be half as bad as a paedophile

I think the soldier analogy is a terrible one to use, this isn't a war situation and thus not applicable in any way.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by setanta

I'm talking about in the execution room, and in cold blood. Nah, that would have such an effect on you.

Oh believe me I could! If somebody killed my child, my life would be effected in such a way that an execution room would be a dawdle! I would give the bastard a few more buzzes for good measure too..

Seriously, it would not be a problem for me! Not at all!

I don't think it would be possible to get over the death of a child.. ever.

And no, killing would not bring the child back,but it would ensure that he didn't kill anybody else's baby plus rid me of the anger at the thought of him spending a few poxy years in a cell with a roof over his head and basically being protected by our shoddy system!

[MissKittyFantastico]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

Yep, absolutely, I could live with it just fine.

Really? I think perhaps a lot of people could sit here and say that NOW, but when it actually comes to taking another person's life, it's a whole different matter. And it doesn't change anything, doesn't take away the crime that's been committed and someone else is also now dead. I just don't see how it makes anything better at all. And the criminal most probably has parents too, that have committed no wrong doing, so the grief and suffering is just being made more and more widespread.