[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Vile but I agree with Kizzy, this is what happens when you kick those at the bottom and demonise those who couldn't have any less. Hate crime is a product of it.

I'll hold back from writing a long response to this incident and just latch on to your post, since you said far better than me exactly what my thoughts are too.

[Vicky.]

Sadly this thing seems to be seen as almost acceptable. Hey theres a homeless guy, its obviously his own fault, he should have just gone to one of the 600 million shelters..he clearly wants to sleep on the streets. I bet he uses foodbanks too. The bum should get a job.

[Kizzy]

Yes you suggested that everyone get's the same info from the same sources... they don't.

Anyway if that's your opinion fine.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes you suggested that everyone get's the same info from the same sources... they don't.

Anyway if that's your opinion fine.

It is indeed

[Ammi]

..I agree with Niamh, not everything has a reason for it..it's to do with character and only some people would do something like that/treat someone like that as though they're worthless...you can't be 'conditioned' to do something like that/awful girls...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I agree with Niamh, not everything has a reason for it..it's to do with character and only some people would do something like that/treat someone like that as though they're worthless...you can't be 'conditioned' to do something like that/awful girls...

Actually you can, it's well documented that media influence precedes an attitudinal shift in the sub conscience of their target audience.

'Moral panic is such a well established term, both in academic and everyday
vocabulary, that it is surprising to recall that it has only become widely used since the
work of Stan Cohen in the early 1970s on youth subcultures. Since then the term has
been regularly used in the media to refer to all sorts of anti-social and/or criminal
behaviours. Essentially, a moral panic refers to an exaggerated reaction, from the
media, the police or wider public, to the activities of particular social groups. These
activities may well be relatively trivial but have been reported in a somewhat
sensationalised form in the media; and such reporting and publicity has then led to an
increase in general anxiety and concern about those activities. So a moral panic is an
exaggerated response to a type of behaviour that is seen as a social problem – the term
indicates an over-reaction on the part of the media and/or other social institutions.
Furthermore, this over-reaction magnifies the original area of concern. Indeed it leads
to the social group (and, as a consequence, the behaviour and activities they engage
in) being viewed by the wider society as ‘folk devils’ – another term coined by
Cohen. Indeed Cohen’s book on the mods and rockers of the 1960s was titled Folk
Devils and Moral Panics: The Creation of the Mods and Rockers and therefore, as
Newburn (2007) puts it, has ‘the distinction of containing two terms, folk devils and
moral panics, which have subsequently entered popular terminology’

http://www.internetjournalofcriminol...March_2011.pdf

[Kizzy]

Up to 300 people will sleep rough on the streets of London tonight, many of them skilled, intelligent and likeable people, and many of whom want to work.

http://www.streetsoflondon.org.uk/about-homelessness

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Up to 300 people will sleep rough on the streets of London tonight, many of them skilled, intelligent and likeable people, and many of whom want to work.

http://www.streetsoflondon.org.uk/about-homelessness

Don't blow the illusion kizzy. Clearly homeless people are homeless because they don't want a job and would rather live on the streets than have a home or use a shelter

[Ammi]

..I don't think that's relevant to what those girls did at all..what that refers to is an 'inciting' from the media into a panic state and that can have an effect on behaviour but there has been no inciting of the media about homeless people or them being any type of 'threat' to create panic...what those girls did is not a 'conditioning' thing, it's a callous like of value that they've placed on someone who did them no harm whatsoever...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think that's relevant to what those girls did at all..what that refers to is an 'inciting' from the media into a panic state and that can have an effect on behaviour but there has been no inciting of the media about homeless people or them being any type of 'threat' to create panic...what those girls did is not a 'conditioning' thing, it's a callous like of value that they've placed on someone who did them no harm whatsoever...

Exactly.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think that's relevant to what those girls did at all..what that refers to is an 'inciting' from the media into a panic state and that can have an effect on behaviour but there has been no inciting of the media about homeless people or them being any type of 'threat' to create panic...what those girls did is not a 'conditioning' thing, it's a callous like of value that they've placed on someone who did them no harm whatsoever...

You don't think, you haven't heard any negative press about homeless illegal immigrants? ok.

A callous like ( or lack)? of value is just what a folk devil has though ammi, if you don't feel it has a baring that's fine.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You don't think, you haven't heard any negative press about homeless illegal immigrants? ok.

A callous like ( or lack)? of value is just what a folk devil has though ammi, if you don't feel it has a baring that's fine.

bearing*

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Up to 300 people will sleep rough on the streets of London tonight, many of them skilled, intelligent and likeable people, and many of whom want to work.

http://www.streetsoflondon.org.uk/about-homelessness

Yes they are in the way

[Livia]

There have always been homeless people and they've always been attacked because some people are just awful people. A few years ago (2008 maybe...?) a banker was stabbed to death in Norwich when he tried to help a homeless man who was being attacked by mindless thugs, blaming people's violent, mindless behaviour on the media is a cop out. It's like saying violent films make people violent. Those girls should be booted out of uni and then prosecuted to the full force of the law.

[user104658]

Kizzy is 100% correct, we're in the midst of a government and media campaign to dehumanise the poor and vulnerable. Attitudes and incidents like these will only increase until that process is reversed; but I think it'll be a long time until that happens.

That isn't an excuse for these girls. What they have done is morally void and disgusting. But those predisposed to doing things like this are being given a target - being given the green light - to treat people as worthless. Our government does it, the mass media does it, why shouldn't they join in the fun?

Also, the longer it goes on, the more young people you will see being indoctrinated to this mindset.

Originally Posted by Ammi

it's to do with character and only some people would do something like that/treat someone like that as though they're worthless...you can't be 'conditioned' to do something like that/awful girls...

It is to do with character but that doesn't mean it isn't conditioned. Of course it's conditioned. They are awful, vile girls... they don't deserve excuses or sympathy... but that doesn't mean we should be blinkered. How did they END UP such awful, vile girls? They surely weren't born that way. They've learned these vile attitudes from society - be that their parents, their friends, or their other surroundings. They picked them up somewhere. And we're being flooded with it more and more form every angle. How many "benefits scum" light entertainment shows have been on TV this last year? How many front page newspaper articles about "scroungers"? We're being covertly and overtly encouraged to treat these people as "lesser", and this is (one of) the result(s).

[Kazanne]

I'de say it's more down to parenting,it's too easy to blame other people,what were these girls parents like?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I'de say it's more down to parenting,it's too easy to blame other people,what were these girls parents like?

And if it's just down to parenting... then why would the parents be like that? Because of their parents? Who were like that because of THEIR parents? The strongest influence on how a person "turns out" is indeed their parents but that is society. Subliminal views and values that are passed from generation to generation. Views and values that are forged in prejudice. In this case, a prejudice that is being constantly reinforced by society. By our own government, which is constantly encouraging this very mindset in order to fulfill a political agenda of elitism and scape-goating.

[Livia]

Homeless people were much less of a problem under Labour, right?

Time for people to take control of themselves, their families, their kids and stop blaming everything that's wrong with society on the government. Unless you're a sheep and don't have any kind of freedom of thought, you should be bringing your kids up to be decent members of society and not disgusting thugs. If your kids are disgusting thugs it's your fault and not the fault of the government, and frankly the apologists for people who's kids are disgusting thugs aren't helping the situation, merely making excuses for it.

[Kizzy]

The media demonisation has occurred over the last 4yrs... is it coincidence?
The neo -conservative laissez-faire ideology doesn't sit well with many in our allegedly civillised society.
What's worse than a violent thug? an ignorant, judgmental and supercillious elitist.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The media demonisation has occurred over the last 4yrs... is it coincidence?
The neo -conservative laissez-faire ideology doesn't sit well with many in our allegedly civillised society.
What's worse than a violent thug? an ignorant, judgmental and supercillious elitist.

I'd vote for violent thug tbh

[MTVN]

So in just 4 years, really a very short time in the grand scheme of things, the Coalition government has turned all newspapers, all media outlets, all the country against homeless people? They've engineered a campaign which has altered the mindset of the whole country, turned friendly and caring people into vicious and violent thugs? Transformed a nation of charity givers into cruel individualists who hate the poor and only look out for themselves? Come off it.

If you blame laissez faire capitalism then you blame Labour as well as the Conservatives. Whether you like to admit it or not the parties are not that far apart ideologically. Since Blair the Labour party have supported capitalism and the free market just as the Conservatives always do. It's nonsense to make 2010 a watershed in the way that the homeless were treated, I don't exactly remember a lot of flattering headlines or positive schemes to help the homeless before then. I don't remember waves of compassion emanating from media outlets under New Labour. To say that there was is just rose tinted glasses imo.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So in just 4 years, really a very short time in the grand scheme of things, the Coalition government has turned all newspapers, all media outlets, all the country against homeless people? They've engineered a campaign which has altered the mindset of the whole country, turned friendly and caring people into vicious and violent thugs? Transformed a nation of charity givers into cruel individualists who hate the poor and only look out for themselves? Come off it.

If you blame laissez faire capitalism then you blame Labour as well as the Conservatives. Whether you like to admit it or not the parties are not that far apart ideologically. Since Blair the Labour party have supported capitalism and the free market just as the Conservatives always do. It's nonsense to make 2010 a watershed in the way that the homeless were treated, I don't exactly remember a lot of flattering headlines or positive schemes to help the homeless before then. I don't remember waves of compassion emanating from media outlets under New Labour. To say that there was is just rose tinted glasses imo.

Great post, MTVN.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So in just 4 years, really a very short time in the grand scheme of things, the Coalition government has turned all newspapers, all media outlets, all the country against homeless people? They've engineered a campaign which has altered the mindset of the whole country, turned friendly and caring people into vicious and violent thugs? Transformed a nation of charity givers into cruel individualists who hate the poor and only look out for themselves? Come off it.

If you blame laissez faire capitalism then you blame Labour as well as the Conservatives. Whether you like to admit it or not the parties are not that far apart ideologically. Since Blair the Labour party have supported capitalism and the free market just as the Conservatives always do. It's nonsense to make 2010 a watershed in the way that the homeless were treated, I don't exactly remember a lot of flattering headlines or positive schemes to help the homeless before then. I don't remember waves of compassion emanating from media outlets under New Labour. To say that there was is just rose tinted glasses imo.

I have to say yes over the last 4yrs the demonisation towards immigrants and welfare claimants has seemed to have stepped up apace over the last couple of years via the media, the term 'poverty porn' springs to mind.
It may have always existed, what I'm suggesting is that it is now becoming the 'norm'.
This is only my view of course.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So in just 4 years, really a very short time in the grand scheme of things, the Coalition government has turned all newspapers, all media outlets, all the country against homeless people? They've engineered a campaign which has altered the mindset of the whole country, turned friendly and caring people into vicious and violent thugs? Transformed a nation of charity givers into cruel individualists who hate the poor and only look out for themselves? Come off it.

If you blame laissez faire capitalism then you blame Labour as well as the Conservatives. Whether you like to admit it or not the parties are not that far apart ideologically. Since Blair the Labour party have supported capitalism and the free market just as the Conservatives always do. It's nonsense to make 2010 a watershed in the way that the homeless were treated, I don't exactly remember a lot of flattering headlines or positive schemes to help the homeless before then. I don't remember waves of compassion emanating from media outlets under New Labour. To say that there was is just rose tinted glasses imo.

Completely agree with this....this country has been going this way for many years, not just the last 4.

[joeysteele]

I agree there were homeless people under Labour and have been for likely centuries,however I am finding this Govt. by it's policies are creating more homeless people who would not otherwise likely have been homeless.
I know of 3 people myself who because of the bedroom tax and the arrears they had sadly built up,they were left with nowhere to go,could not be re-housed by the local authority and no way could they have coped with renting in the private sector.

This I would only 'guess' is happening a lot too.
The other thing is, organisations to help with the homeless are more overstretched than before now and with less financial assistance too.
The other factor too was although at least one of the 3 people I mention could have stayed at his Father's home,had he done so, his Father would have lost some of the financial help he then got.

Many people now are in rent arrears for local authority housing who have never ever had rent arrears before.
They cannot cope, in time there will be eviction orders sought and if those people in rent arrears do not get the 'right' help at that point where and if they can, then with no mercy from Council or Govt, they will lose their homes and be out on the street.

So although I would indeed condemn all parties for the homeless over the last few decades,I do feel the need to have to quantify that with the fact the policies this present Govt have mercilessly brought in,are making the problem much harder to sort out and indeed are unnecessarily also adding to it.