[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Wow... you have a very skewed view of the world and the UK's position in it.

Gratifying to see the Remainers are largely on holiday and won't be voting...

'Skewed' is an understatement. It's sad and worrying.

[kirklancaster]

Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out.out. Out. Out.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out.out. Out. Out.

so...How you voting again Kirky?I wish you'd get straight to the point sometimes instead of waffling on.

[Kizzy]

Another EU voting thread?
The knives are coming out now it's ace, the debates are better than BB

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

so...How you voting again Kirky?I wish you'd get straight to the point sometimes instead of waffling on.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

so instead of fighting to change our own government , give up and try to change an unelected parliament of 30 countries and 500 million+ people and tens of thosuands of politcians?
lol

totally illogical and totally undemocratic and wholly ineffective

keep sovereignty and keep democracy and simply fight the government on every single issue...thats how democracy works, you should throw it away for ANYTHING....least of all a wasteful bankrupt corporate cartel of unelected crooks

If we, as the UK, have thrown anything away it has been done and allowed to be done by the govts we elected here in the UK of all persuasions.

I do not blame the EU for that,I blame those govts,which in fact,the current one, no matter its heartlessness and extreme policies, I cannot get rid of either,under this outdated electoral system and while the far South only of England remains a virtual one party State and getting even worse as to that.

I have issues with the EU and want it reformed, the UK cannot reform it any more if out of it,however I hate far more most of what the last 4 elected UK govts have done over the last 15 years, than anything the EU has.

I wouldn't actually be that confident if I was you that even by leaving you would get back what you hope for as to immigration or other conditions.

The UK may on paper gain around Ł170 million a week, a pittance in govt monetary terms.
What it then possibly would lose in real success,credibility,status and influence in the World, not just as to the EU, could be far bigger.

There you have my opinion anyway, and just before you come back at me and say it, I am sure what I have said is just more of what you would term as nonsense from me.

However we will see, and I would like to see some sort of insurance that if all goes wrong once out, the leave campaigns are held accountably responsible for same for their misleading of the voters on this issue.

[jaxie]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convicted of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's not racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally. We have enough home grown ones, we dont need extras.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to sack the government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade deal is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS. Are we willing to have EU rules and regulations in the NHS?

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Apologies as I have been tweaking what I wanted to say and correcting typos for a bit so those quoting me may not have it all.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes the! From the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this and it will never work. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, party self inflicted yes but whole nations are being financially gloves or government mistakes.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

There is not ONE true reason to remain in this corrupt shambles Jaxie.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes the! From the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this and it will never work. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, party self inflicted yes but whole nations are being financially gloves or government mistakes.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

And we aren't already...Since when have we not been part of the wider world?
Just wait till the wider world wants to be part of us, if some have an issue with eastern Europeans just wait....

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

If we, as the UK, have thrown anything away it has been done and allowed to be done by the govts we elected here in the UK of all persuasions.

I do not blame the EU for that,I blame those govts,which in fact,the current one, no matter its heartlessness and extreme policies, I cannot get rid of either,under this outdated electoral system and while the far South only of England remains a virtual one party State and getting even worse as to that.

I have issues with the EU and want it reformed, the UK cannot reform it any more if out of it,however I hate far more most of what the last 4 elected UK govts have done over the last 15 years, than anything the EU has.

I wouldn't actually be that confident if I was you that even by leaving you would get back what you hope for as to immigration or other conditions.

The UK may on paper gain around Ł170 million a week, a pittance in govt monetary terms.
What it then possibly would lose in real success,credibility,status and influence in the World, not just as to the EU, could be far bigger.

There you have my opinion anyway, and just before you come back at me and say it, I am sure what I have said is just more of what you would term as nonsense from me.

However we will see, and I would like to see some sort of insurance that if all goes wrong once out, the leave campaigns are held accountably responsible for same for their misleading of the voters on this issue.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Great post Jaxie.

The more I've looked into how the EU handles trade deals, the more I realize we are being suffocated.

The Swiss route is the way forward for Britain.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Great post Jaxie.

The more I've looked into how the EU handles trade deals, the more I realize we are being suffocated.

The Swiss route is the way forward for Britain.

Hey wonderful to see you still around! I agree about the Swiss, they never joined he Eu and they are thriving.

There is life outside the EU people just need to be brave enough to step out of the comfort zone. One thing for sure all those outside the UK opinions like Obama have their own interests in us being in the EU and they aren't necessarily our best interests.

[Kizzy]

It sounds great in principle, however we are not Switzerland... they were not involved in wars, they are the Jeremy Corbyn of the world.

HEY, I changed my mind! let's be Swiss

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It sounds great in principle, however we are not Switzerland... they were not involved in wars, they are the Jeremy Corbyn of the world.

HEY, I changed my mind! let's be Swiss

Don't start me on what's wrong with Labour!

We aren't Switzerland but that doesn't mean we can't point to a country that didn't join and is doing nicely as am example.

If anyone is worried about war, I would think dangers of war are far more likely fro. Forcing people into an ideology they don't share then decimating their NHS are much more likely to cause conflicts than just putting on our coats and packing our bags.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Good post Jack_

I too have found great disillusionment with people I thought more balanced even some in my family.

I am not in anyway an isolationist or a separatist,the days of old are far gone but some think we can just jump into old shoes and walk where we did decades ago.
That is why I will vote to remain and not fall prey to the leave sides endless ifs,maybe's and don't knows as to what will really happen for the UK if out.
I know what it is like in the EU,and so I see fewer risks in than out.

I have no doubt at all the UK out of the EU can stand on its own feet,I fear however that while standing it will not know which way to turn or where to walk to,or even find all it hopes too either, so end up going really nowhere.

That's a gamble I refuse to put the UK and its future generations through as to even the tiniest risk.
I also think as quitters we will be even more disliked.

You are making the biggest gamble if you stay.

[bots]

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box

What scares me a little is that it has taken a long time to even get a referendum on Europe and if people vote remain we might end up stuck in a very bad situation with no way out. Just look at how eager a large majority of our politicians were to give up the pound which would have been a disaster. I think that many people have such a jaded view of people like Farage that it prevents them actually looking at the bigger picture.

I could go on and on about crazy EU directives like making chocolate conform to guidelines across the EU and taking 4 years to do it. Our chocolate has never tasted right since! But levity aside, four years debating chocolate? REALLY?

I understand people are scared but for me there is no deep breath, I have on my running shoes and I really want the starting pistol.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convicted of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's not racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally. We have enough home grown ones, we dont need extras.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to sack the government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade deal is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS. Are we willing to have EU rules and regulations in the NHS?

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Apologies as I have been tweaking what I wanted to say and correcting typos for a bit so those quoting me may not have it all.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box

Not me.Not with all the stinky pensioners in my local polling station.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Hey wonderful to see you still around! I agree about the Swiss, they never joined he Eu and they are thriving.

There is life outside the EU people just need to be brave enough to step out of the comfort zone. One thing for sure all those outside the UK opinions like Obama have their own interests in us being in the EU and they aren't necessarily our best interests.

This is what i've been saying for a while too.People trying to coerce us into staying are doing so for there own interests not ours.
The EU organisation does'nt care about the interests of it's members just itself.They may have some common interests with us but they have many which are not,Hence all the regulations they are placing on us.

[Johnnyuk123]

Take the IN/OUT of the EU test.
I got... You want democracy 100% for the UK and will therefore be voting OUT!

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are making the biggest gamble if you stay.

Sorry,I respect fully your position but I certainly do not see it that way.

I see remaining in as having risks too but I have a better idea of what any risks may be and that also we would be easily likely to overcome any which arise.

If out,I have heard nothing of assurance or substantiation as to what can be achieved or the elimination as best as possible of any risks.

I would rather continue to work within something I know, than walk into areas unknown with little idea of any positives or negatives there may be there.
That is why I will vote to stay, I know where I am, and the UK is, inside in the EU and that we can remain a successful Nation

Coming out,I have not the slightest substantiated idea really how that would either affect me personally, affect the future generations of the UK and indeed affect the UK itself too.

I believe the voters will narrowly vote to leave unfortunately but for me, the vote to leave is the real gamble,not staying in now.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Sorry,I respect fully your position but I certainly do not see it that way.

I see remaining in as having risks too but I have a better idea of what any risks may be and that also we would be easily likely to overcome any which arise.

If out,I have heard nothing of assurance or substantiation as to what can be achieved or the elimination as best as possible of any risks.

I would rather continue to work within something I know, than walk into areas unknown with little idea of any positives or negatives there may be there.
That is why I will vote to stay, I know where I am, and the UK is, inside in the EU and that we can remain a successful Nation

Coming out,I have not the slightest substantiated idea really how that would either affect me personally, affect the future generations of the UK and indeed affect the UK itself too.

I believe the voters will narrowly vote to leave unfortunately but for me, the vote to leave is the real gamble,not staying in now.

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections because we aren't the only ones unhappy with the EU and being patronised by our politics and a lot of people don't seem to feel they have anywhere else to go. The Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure. And most worrying of all those forging ahead to ever closer union are either oblivious or simply don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections, the Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure.

Thousands of years of continental conflict

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Thousands of years of continental conflict

And you don't think a surge to the far right in some countries politics has potential to cause conflict?

There is also a lot of dissent over the migrant crisis and the way Germany handled it and then back tracked. That whole mess is far from over.