[Livia]

Originally Posted by Firewire

No wonder they want to come here then, eh?

Women have no rights over their own bodies in FGM practising countries, I'm sure they wouldn't be the ones deciding which country to move to. That would be the man.

[Livia]

It's not practised in all Muslim countries. But this thread is talking about occidentaphobia, not Islam. I pointed out that it's mostly a Muslim practise even though it says nothing about it in the Koran, only male circumcision.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's not practised in all Muslim countries. But this thread is talking about occidentaphobia, not Islam. I pointed out that it's mostly a Muslim practise even though it says nothing about it in the Koran, only male circumcision.

To be fair though, male circumcision is completely unnecessary too (although not as damaging) and that's still being practiced as well by the west, those new born baby boys have no choice in the matter either

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

To be fair though, male circumcision is completely unnecessary too (although not as damaging) and that's still being practiced as well by the west, those new born baby boys have no choice in the matter either

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

The whole male circumcision thing is an argument for another thread I guess but imo it is horrific as well

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The whole male circumcision thing is an argument for another thread I guess but imo it is horrific as well

I love you Niamh... but if you think male circumcision and female genital mutilation are at all comparable, you really don't know enough about FGM.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

If it were religious observance and not a cultural one then all Muslim countries would practice surely?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If it were religious observance and not a cultural one then all Muslim countries would practice surely?

I personally don't really care about nitpicking over whether it's 'cultural' or 'religious'. I'm more concerned that's it's barbaric, horrific, agonising, and life changing.

[DemolitionRed]

Did Professor Rund Koopmans also do a study on Hindu, ultra orthodox Jews and ultra orthodox Christians?

[Withano]

So can you answer how you came across the article or is that top secret stuff

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

So can you answer how you came across the article or is that top secret stuff

Only in your head.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Only in your head.

So you cant answer how you came across the article...
... so when I suggested that you probably searched in to google for an article precisely or similiar to the one you found, I can assume I was correct?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

So you cant answer how you came across the article...
... so when I suggested that you probably searched in to google for an article precisely or similiar to the one you found, I can assume I was correct?

You and your conspiracy theories - Islamic migration in the West - see for yourself. Read it and weep.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You and your conspiracy theories - Islamic migration in the West - see for yourself. Read it and weep.

Thats not relevant to the one and only question i have asked you in this thread. (I have asked you about five times and you diverting it each time makes you look super silly, its a very easy question).

How did you come across the article.

[Tom4784]

It's just hysteria really.

Most of the 'facts' presented in the article are unqualified and thus untrustworthy and the study it quotes figures is dubious at best.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/euro...ism-criticised

The title of the article is enough to call bull**** on it alone.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's just hysteria really.

Most of the 'facts' presented in the article are unqualified and thus untrustworthy and the study it quotes figures is dubious at best.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/euro...ism-criticised

The title of the article is enough to call bull**** on it alone.

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

The study was not even deemed internally reliable by the person who created it, let alone his critics
You cant have a differering interpretation, opinion or motivation on a cronbach alpha score. It just is what it is. Undeniably internally unreliable. The original author does not suggest otherwise, he'd be ridiculed even more so if he did.
The article you found on the study, whether you like this or not, was biased. There are tens of things wrong with the best of published studies, and your author declared zero for this obscure one. This study has a hell of a lot more than ten things wrong with it lol. The questions, for one, must be deemed unreliable for every single person who wishes to interpret them based on the alpha score, including the guy who wrote the original publication. All interpretations afterwards are based on unreliable questions and should not be taken entirely seriously... even if you read some article about it made by some bloke with a biased agenda, and a clickbait title

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

Except it isn't a valid study.

The results are skewed and you can't deny that although you will because of confirmation bias.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except it isn't a valid study.

The results are skewed and you can't deny that although you will because of confirmation bias.

Let's be clear that confirmation bias works equally both ways, so you will have a bias for info that supports your views and so will I. No doubt the article that criticised the study I presented will likely have also received criticism of its comments/criticism from elsewhere.

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc. A study can be challenged years down the line when new info or ideas come to light - little is written in stone on things like this. It isn't like diagnosing a medical condition or stating that the world is round.

There are other studies that have expressed similar concerns - it isn't just one study. To attempt to dismiss all concerns as either racism or stupidity is just words with an agenda and worse than the worst study and achieves nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Let's be clear that confirmation bias works equally both ways, so you will have a bias for info that supports your views and so will I. No doubt the comments that criticised the study I presented will likely have also received criticism of its comments/criticism from elsewhere.

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc. A study can be challenged years down the line when new info or ideas come to light - little is written in stone on things like this. It isn't like diagnosing a medical condition or stating that the world is round.

There are other studies that have expressed similar concerns - it isn't just one study. To attempt to dismiss all concerns as either racism or stupidity is just words with an agenda and worse than the worst study and achieves nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

The results themselves are skewed, the people interviewed were only migrants from Morroco and Turkey, you cannot ignore the broad range of muslim people in Europe and make claims based on only a sample selection that isn't representative of Muslims as a whole. It'd be like interviewing a bunch of British racists and releasing a study saying that the UK as a whole is racist based on that sample. It's utter foolishness and that's why this study has been dragged through the mud.

If you think poking valid holes in a flawed study is confirmation bias then you don't understand what confirmation bias is, you can't just explain away what is an incredibly flawed study by saying that the flaws are basically a matter of opinion when they aren't. You can't also say 'there are other studies that expressed similar concerns' without actually linking them, the only study that's been presented in this topic is the one in the article and it's already been proven as flawed and unreliable.

The article is biased, inflammatory and the only figures it backs up are from a study that's easily discredited. It's a worthless clickbait article with no real merit.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

This isn't true though which is the point you missed about twelve times. There is no second way to perceive a statistical analysis. The questions in this dataset are undoubtedly internally unreliable in literally everyone's mind, including the mind of the initial researcher. The author of your article ignores this fact (not opinion, fact) and has mislead you into believing exactly what you searched out to look for. Which is kinda how confirmation bias works.

[Kizzy]

I have a new term colonophobia, the refusal to acknowledge the colonial crimes past and present of the 'empire'.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I have a new term, colonophobia

...That kind of sounds like it would be about something else Kizzy

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

...That kind of sounds like it would be about something else Kizzy

Fear of people with their heads stuck up their arses? In which case I'm afflicted

[Vicky.]

I cannot believe there have never been any convictions for FGM. Disgusting practice, totally unnecessary and absolutely child abuse.