[bots]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Do you have some examples of the woke agenda? And what is your definition of woke?

honestly don't take much notice of it, i've just seen people getting irate and quoting "woke"

[Ammi]

…and actually they’re not ‘ridiculous examples…they’re very harmful examples because there are some who are believing ‘that woke weapon’ and that they have to rise up against it and take a stand …the power of labels and demonisation and manipulation…*cough*…Nigel Farage….

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

but equally, you have picked 3 of the most ridiculous examples

Like all these movements that gain a bit of traction, people add more and more ridiculous things to the "woke" agenda daily which is what leaves it open to ridicule and scorn. There hasn't been a movement in recent years that hasn't suffered exactly the same

…I’ve picked the examples that scream ‘woke’ because I don’t hear it with people I know who don’t manipulate words and label people to weoponise and turn into a negative because they’re not so keen on their beliefs…how can it be said for instance that equality is wrong…?…so attack the person or people with a belief to attempt to devalue any words they have…

[Ammi]

…anyways, I do feel that sadly the forum has come to follow the media and social media in terms of ‘click bait’ for too long and that’s been the deterioration of discussion quality…so thank you, Slim ….…for a thread and question that’s been very open and honest and agenda free…more like the thriving SD we’ve all experienced and loved as a core of TiBB…

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…to me that ‘muddling’ …or weaponising ‘woke’ in terms of its actual meaning…?…would be for attention and likes etc, as you say, yes…but for some it would be a clear and specific purpose of self agenda and self promotion and self income …people like Piers Morgan, Katie Hopkins, Laurence Fox …..who most definitely manipulate it as ‘threat’ thing to society…rather than a support of any society inequality…

I agree with that. Both 'sides' do it. And both sides of the argument have well documented opinions. The media are a lot to blame for this. Nothing can ever be black and white, it's just one extreme to the other.

(Piers Morgan is a tricky one for me, i do agree with some of what he says. I don't know enough about Laurence Fox to have an opinion. Katie Hopkins is a vile human being and i never have, and never will take anything she says serious. A perfect example of self obsessed ego-maniac)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Swan

I agree with that. Both 'sides' do it. And both sides of the argument have well documented opinions. The media are a lot to blame for this. Nothing can ever be black and white, it's just one extreme to the other.

(Piers Morgan is a tricky one for me, i do agree with some of what he says. I don't know enough about Laurence Fox to have an opinion. Katie Hopkins is a vile human being and i never have, and never will take anything she says serious. A perfect example of self obsessed ego-maniac)

…that’s the ‘trick’ and manipulation though, isn’t it…to follow public opinions, which are mostly expressed in a negative …and again that’s always been the way and it’s obviously a very fast track world of social media now….to take a ‘seed’ of something that is public talking point etc…and then feed and manipulate it into a demonised beast…

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…that’s the ‘trick’ and manipulation though, isn’t it…to follow public opinions, which are mostly expressed in a negative …and again that’s always been the way and it’s obviously a very fast track world of social media now….to take a ‘seed’ of something that is public talking point etc…and then feed and manipulate it into a demonised beast…

Yes i completely agree. The media play a huge part. Highlighting a 'woke' teen girl saying white people having a BBQ are racist doesn't help.

Behaviour on both sides cannot be dismissed. So many nuts on this 'woke for the wrong reasons' 'woke for the right reasons' are dominating what we see in the media.

We need a middle ground, we need a discourse, we need to find mutual grounds. We need an understanding, no shouting, no 'you're wrong im right' etc. But none of that sells. So all we really see is extremes from both sides because it sells, unfortunately.

[user104658]

Holding an opinion that's popular within certain groups but is NOT evidence-based, or backed by a solid philosophy or explanation, without giving it much (if any) thought, because it's been declared to be "the right way to think".

Now... many of the ideologies that would fall under "woke" are absolutely solid and valid, others don't stand up to scrutiny when it comes right down to it, HOWEVER that's not the part that's relevant;

If someone holds an opinion because it sounds virtuous, and largely because other members of "their group" think it's correct, but (and this is the important part) cannot actually justify or explain their individual thinking or philosophies when pressed ont he subject then that is what I would call "wokeness". Also the idea that deviation from, or even vague questioning of, the status-quo opinion is "wrong" or "immoral". That doesn't mean the opinion is NOT virtuous or doesn't have merit. It's about how that person came to that conclusion.

Similar examples of group-think/tribalism exist all across the political spectrum but I'd say what makes it specifically "wokeness" is that moral absolutism when it comes to social justice issues.

[Tom4784]

It's such a weird insult. 'Haha! You have empathy for others and you don't like treating people as lessers because of who they are! What a ****ing loser!'

It's just bigots trying to demonise common decency really.

[Babayaro.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's such a weird insult. 'Haha! You have empathy for others and you don't like treating people as lessers because of who they are! What a ****ing loser!'

It's just bigots trying to demonise common decency really.

Basically

[Crimson Dynamo]

I blame all the Gammons for using this term Woke as a lazy collective diss

[Liam-]

Nobody ever actually refers to themselves as ‘woke’ in a serious manner, the only people who use the word are the right wingers who see it as an excuse to try and justify the fact that they are simply, just not very nice people

[GiRTh]

I think the term can be overanalysed. I think it is nothing more than a lazy way of opposing people who want some change.

I agree the term has been weaponised by both sides of the political spectrum as a negative to score points and dismiss an others opinion.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I think the term can be overanalysed. I think it is nothing more than a lazy way of opposing people who want some change.

I agree the term has been weaponised by both sides of the political spectrum as a negative to score points and dismiss an others opinion.

….yep, it’s all just games of words …it’s hard to argue social equalities and justice as a negative so the trick of the game is to label it into a negative…you goddamn woke thing you…no listening/no talking/just labelling…back and forth and back and forth…

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

As this is obviously the biggest insult on this island at the moment, I'd like for some of the folks who believe it's a negative, to explain exactly what it means, to help the rest of us, and me in particular, understand exactly why it's a problem.

Anyone is welcome to contribute, but I only want to read your personal opinions, not daily mail comments or telegraph articles.

To me, woke is a positive or a negative depending on how it’s used. To be ‘woke’ should be a positive attribute, as it recognizes inequalities and strives to understand and eradicate them - and it often is.

But it is often used in a negative way to describe people like 'virtue signallers' who create a divisive, reactionary atmosphere by going to extremes. Calling people out as racist or sexist for example with no evidence at all other than a difference of opinion or cancelling people or things for unnecessary or ridiculous reasons achieves nothing. It just demonstrates the smugness of the accuser and the ‘look at me, I’m so enlightened and better than you’ mindset when what they are actually doing is damaging and limiting progress.

The majority of men and women are just trying to look after their families and be decent citizens, they don’t need some teen or twenty something woke warrior insisting they know what they think and feel or destroying statues instead of directing their energies towards the future and positive change.
When a person’s 'wokeness' isn’t used as an OTT tool to beat people with to score points and likes, it’s obviously a very desirable and needed quality.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

As this is obviously the biggest insult on this island at the moment, I'd like for some of the folks who believe it's a negative, to explain exactly what it means, to help the rest of us, and me in particular, understand exactly why it's a problem.

Anyone is welcome to contribute, but I only want to read your personal opinions, not daily mail comments or telegraph articles.

…just to add…(..I was thinking this morning because a phrase popped up in something unrelated that I was reading…)…?…’don’t hate the player, hate the game’….how that could be applied to ‘woke’ or ‘wokeness’….the ‘game’ ..(…for example..)…being an inequality that’s still prevalent in society despite apparent ‘progression’ etc..and that’s obviously the thing to be looked at/the inequality and issue that society should be looking at…?…but for whatever the reasons, that game that shows inequality or exclusivity or whatever is averted away from in favour of ‘hating the player’…as in focusing on those who are highlighting something…anyway, I know that’s quite simplistic and it’s much more layered and complex as everything is…but that phrase made me think of that association anyway…I think as someone said, I think it was GiRTh…that its a ‘lazy way’…because it’s an easier option to ‘label’ the player, rather than look at more deep and more unpleasant things within the game itself…

[Livia]

I think the term 'woke' used to mean people who are aware of world crises - poverty, climate change etc. - and tried to do something about it. But the word's been hijacked and now it refers to people who try to highlight world problems by showing people how virtuous they are, who talk about climate change (etc) in a didactic way, assuming that others aren't quite so virtuous or worried. Furthermore, it's just another name, just another reason to push people into pigeon holes and name call with no consequence: woke, gammon, Karen, Millennial, GenX, Boomer.....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think the term 'woke' used to mean people who are aware of world crises - poverty, climate change etc. - and tried to do something about it. But the word's been hijacked and now it refers to people who try to highlight world problems by showing people how virtuous they are, who talk about climate change (etc) in a didactic way, assuming that others aren't quite so virtuous or worried. Furthermore, it's just another name, just another reason to push people into pigeon holes and name call with no consequence: woke, gammon, Karen, Millennial, GenX, Boomer.....

I'd say that's a fairly succinct summing up, and largely agree with this whole post. In 2021 I think using any of these words other than at least semi-ironically really misses the point.

[Ammi]

…actually I just came back in to say about climate change etc and that’s a good example because for me…the first time that I became familiar with the label was when it was attached to Greta Thunberg…such a young person challenging world leaders and something that wasn’t accepted very well at all by those world leaders but also other adults in society who some seemed to feel a type of resentment…and I think again it’s too layered to infer lecturing when it’s also how something is received and whether it’s received openly…highlighting/informing of consequences/of changes needed etc is not lecturing…communication is on how something is received as well and whether an individual sees it as a lecture or a highlighted concern …


…IMO, there is often a resistance to receive if from a much younger person../…a child such as Greta…but Sir David Attenborough more or less echoes everything she says and yet is much more less likely to be labelled ‘woke’ or inferred that he’s lecturing…because neither of them are…it doesn’t really help anything at all to not look at the person labelling and their reasons for doing so and only looking at the person being labelled ….

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…actually I just came back in to say about climate change etc and that’s a good example because for me…the first time that I became familiar with the label was when it was attached to Greta Thunberg…such a young person challenging world leaders and something that wasn’t accepted very well at all by those world leaders but also other adults in society who some seemed to feel a type of resentment…and I think again it’s too layered to infer lecturing when it’s also how something is received and whether it’s received openly…highlighting/informing of consequences/of changes needed etc is not lecturing…communication is on how something is received as well and whether an individual sees it as a lecture or a highlighted concern …


…IMO, there is often a resistance to receive if from a much younger person../…a child such as Greta…but Sir David Attenborough more or less echoes everything she says and yet is much more less likely to be labelled ‘woke’ or inferred that he’s lecturing…because neither of them are…it doesn’t really help anything at all to not look at the person labelling and their reasons for doing so and only looking at the person being labelled ….

You have to feel bad for Al Gore - he was trying to get people to listen long before Greta was born. The term "woke" didn't exist but more or less everyone treated him like a joke for it . Sorry Al.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You have to feel bad for Al Gore - he was trying to get people to listen long before Greta was born. The term "woke" didn't exist but more or less everyone treated him like a joke for it . Sorry Al.

It's because most people don't want to hear it because doing anything meaningful about it would require too much change to their behaviours and probably give up some comforts/luxuries etc

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You have to feel bad for Al Gore - he was trying to get people to listen long before Greta was born. The term "woke" didn't exist but more or less everyone treated him like a joke for it . Sorry Al.

…the thing is for me, working in a school…?…is that Greta engaged the interest of the children in a way that hadn’t been so before…and that was largely obviously because of her age…I do think Al was listened to tbh…but it just didn’t engage in the same way because of that aspect of raising awareness and concerns in our children…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…the thing is for me, working in a school…?…is that Greta engaged the interest of the children in a way that hadn’t been so before…and that was largely obviously because of her age…I do think Al was listened to tbh…but it just didn’t engage in the same way because of that aspect of raising awareness and concerns in our children…

But you know besides the fact that they didn't want to have to think about it, people like Trump are never going to respect or be lectured by a teenager never mind a female teenager

[Ammi]

…I mean, that for me is such a key in working in schools for most of my working life…awareness is raised in adults all of the time and always has been and that’s brought about some changes…but children are our future…(…cliche, I know but it’s true…)…to engage them is the key to an Earth future and to do that, sadly Al just wasn’t going to do it….

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…the thing is for me, working in a school…?…is that Greta engaged the interest of the children in a way that hadn’t been so before…and that was largely obviously because of her age…I do think Al was listened to tbh…but it just didn’t engage in the same way because of that aspect of raising awareness and concerns in our children…

I suppose though with reference to the above, part of my worry lies in children being told the correct conclusion rather than being given the tools to reach the conclusion for themselves. I think there's something sorely missing in the development of proper reasoning and formal operational thought. Some of it is tied into education seemingly going down a slightly post-structuralist/post-truth route of extreme individualism.

Like I said I'm in a bit of a philosophical soup with this stuff at the moment so I'm not actually 100% on my thoughts, I just know there's "something" .