[Kazanne]

Angus this is one hell of a thread you have created.lol

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

actually when they did a servey a few years back,over 85% wanted the death penalty brought back, so it sounds like im in the majority dont you think?

Well, there's no definitive answer, in 2006, the majority were against it - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-penalty.html

But anyway, nobody really supports it in the way you do. You want the death penalty for sex abuse, you want the death penalty for 10 year olds, you wanted the death penalty for a couple who taped a kid to the wall ffs.

And lets not mention your support for mutilating people.

You are not in the majority, and if people like you ever are, then thats when we know our country is well and truly fucked up.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by InOne

I'm sure they don't wake up one day and decide to be a paedophile. It builts up over a number of years. They slowly slowly tip further towards the edge. I think what would be good would be to find out what tips some over the edge. And why some go all the way and why some don't. We can then maybe find ways to stop them from taking the final step. Even if it saves just one kids life, worth a shot isn't it?

Exactly, no one would argue with you making this point. I have said that all day, I have agreed with lots of your points too, this is a good one. I would say this should be done anyway but still the minimum punishment should be put away for life.
I have no difficulty agreeing totally with your comments above. These were the points you made last night,I agreed with you then as did many others.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

when was I? I never mentioned anything about anyones personality

I meant background, sorry.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yet again it's okay for some to put others down with dismissive statements when they have nothing else to bring to the table themselves.

There are always signs of some sort in a budding psychopath and a good parent would surely notice signs of unusual behaviour and get the appropriate help for their child. A bad parent might actually be the reason why their child is a psychopath. Then into the mix there has to be considered the possibility of inherited mental illnesses, again which would surely have been picked up by a good parent.

That aside, it's staggering really that hypothetically the parents of a murdered child, according to some on this thread, are supposed to be considerate of the feelings of the parents of the scum that killed their child. They are also supposed to meekly accept the pathetic sentences handed down, as well as be filled with understanding and compassion for the killer who might well have inflicted the most unimaginable pain and terror on their child.

Spot on,Angus

[MissKittyFantastico]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yet again it's okay for some to put others down with dismissive statements when they have nothing else to bring to the table themselves.

There are always signs of some sort in a budding psychopath and a good parent would surely notice signs of unusual behaviour and get the appropriate help for their child. A bad parent might actually be the reason why their child is a psychopath. Then into the mix there has to be considered the possibility of inherited mental illnesses, again which would surely have been picked up by a good parent.

That aside, it's staggering really that hypothetically the parents of a murdered child, according to some on this thread, are supposed to be considerate of the feelings of the parents of the scum that killed their child. They are also supposed to meekly accept the pathetic sentences handed down, as well as be filled with understanding and compassion for the killer who might well have inflicted the most unimaginable pain and terror on their child.

I think some of these signs can be misdiagnosed though by doctors as things such as ADHD and the like, so you can't really blame the parent for that if they take the kid to the doctors when they see signs and the doctor doesn't correctly diagnose. Also a lot of mental illnesses show very similar early warning signs, you hear stories of people being diagnosed as bipolar when in fact they are displaying psycopathic tendencies, so once again it's really the system that's at fault and not so much the parents. Not in all cases mind you, but the mental health sector in this country is so criminally underfunded and staffed that these things slip through the net time and time again and then it's too late.

And once again noone here is saying that parents should sit by and accept the shoddy justice system in this country, in fact if you did a poll right now I would expect most people on here to agree that murderers, paedophiles and the like should be locked up and the key thrown away. I personally just don't believe that an eye for an eye solves anything.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by InOne

I meant background, sorry.

yeah, I do believe that in alot of cases that background would have alot to do with it. Like abused kids later becoming the abuser. Like I said not always I know

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well, there's no definitive answer, in 2006, the majority were against it - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-penalty.html

But anyway, nobody really supports it in the way you do. You want the death penalty for sex abuse, you want the death penalty for 10 year olds, you wanted the death penalty for a couple who taped a kid to the wall ffs.

And lets not mention your support for mutilating people.

You are not in the majority, and if people like you ever are, then thats when we know our country is well and truly fucked up.

the toddler taped to the wall was gonna die if they werent found so yeah the bastards should have died.

and the 10 year olds that brutally killed an innocent 2 year old do deserve to die.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well, there's no definitive answer, in 2006, the majority were against it - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...h-penalty.html

But anyway, nobody really supports it in the way you do. You want the death penalty for sex abuse, you want the death penalty for 10 year olds, you wanted the death penalty for a couple who taped a kid to the wall ffs.

And lets not mention your support for mutilating people.

You are not in the majority, and if people like you ever are, then thats when we know our country is well and truly fucked up.

Jedward advocated chopping hands off. Most people I know as to sexual abusing children would want more than just hands chopped off the abuser if they had their way.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

I'm sure they don't wake up one day and decide to be a paedophile. It builts up over a number of years. They slowly slowly tip further towards the edge. I think what would be good would be to find out what tips some over the edge. And why some go all the way and why some don't. We can then maybe find ways to stop them from taking the final step. Even if it saves just one kids life, worth a shot isn't it?

Of course intervention in early life is crucial, which is where the parents come in. A good parent would surely be aware of any unusual behaviour or habits in a child they are with 24/7, and it would be reasonable to expect them to get their child some help. A bad parent, be it through abuse or neglect, is going to perpetuate the cycle and that is where schools, doctors etc should be on the ball about reporting their suspicions and getting the appropriate authorities involved. There are already some documented classic signs in childhood that point towards a future psychopathic personality; such as torturing and killing animals; being a loner; being a bully etc.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yet again it's okay for some to put others down with dismissive statements when they have nothing else to bring to the table themselves.

There are always signs of some sort in a budding psychopath and a good parent would surely notice signs of unusual behaviour and get the appropriate help for their child. A bad parent might actually be the reason why their child is a psychopath. Then into the mix there has to be considered the possibility of inherited mental illnesses, again which would surely have been picked up by a good parent.

That aside, it's staggering really that hypothetically the parents of a murdered child, according to some on this thread, are supposed to be considerate of the feelings of the parents of the scum that killed their child. They are also supposed to meekly accept the pathetic sentences handed down, as well as be filled with understanding and compassion for the killer who might well have inflicted the most unimaginable pain and terror on their child.

So my opinion is invalid because you deem Im bringing nothing to the table? There is never always some sort of sign of a budding psycopath thats a ridiculous thing to say aswell, if that were the case there would be no people like that out there.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Jedward advocated chopping hands off. Most people I know as to sexual abusing children would want more than just hands chopped off the abuser if they had their way.

really?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Jedward advocated chopping hands off. Most people I know as to sexual abusing children would want more than just hands chopped off the abuser if they had their way.

Cutting of someones hand is mutiliation, thats a completely inhumane and vile thing to do, and nobody in their right mind would implement such a policy.

Originally Posted by jedward fever

the toddler taped to the wall was gonna die if they werent found so yeah the bastards should have died.

and the 10 year olds that brutally killed an innocent 2 year old do deserve to die.

What are you talking about, read the article again. They did it because they though it would be funny when they were high. They got caught when she showed someone the pictures, they hadnt taped him there to die.

And they were 10 years old ffs

Far from your views being the majority and intelligent, as some have said, I'd say they were rather worrying myself.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by angus58

Of course intervention in early life is crucial, which is where the parents come in. A good parent would surely be aware of any unusual behaviour or habits in a child they are with 24/7, and it would be reasonable to expect them to get their child some help. A bad parent, be it through abuse or neglect, is going to perpetuate the cycle and that is where schools, doctors etc should be on the ball about reporting their suspicions and getting the appropriate authorities involved. There are already some documented classic signs in childhood that point towards a future psychopathic personality; such as torturing and killing animals; being a loner; being a bully etc.

Indeed, but how many parents are going to be looking out for signs of Psychopathy? I mean, it's not something they expect and most probably don't know what these signs are, maybe put it down to "being young". And the torturing and killing of animals is in usually quite extreme cases. The build up is often quite subtle, and then they are far too gone when they realise what their child really is or has become

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Cutting of someones hand is mutiliation, thats a completely inhumane and vile thing to do, and nobody in their right mind would implement such a policy.



What are you talking about, read the article again. They did it because they though it would be funny when they were high. They got caught when she showed someone the pictures, they hadnt taped him there to die.

And they were 10 years old ffs

Far from your views being the majority and intelligent, as some have said, I'd say they were rather worrying myself.

you talk about me having a sick mind when you think that a toddler being taped to a wall because the bastards was high as funny.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

you talk about me having a sick mind when you think that a toddler being taped to a wall because the bastards was high as funny.

Umm no I don't, read properly: "They thought it was funny", I didnt find it funny, they did. I was making the point that their intention was never to kill the child.

Not that that would stop you killing them. You really do seem to like the idea of being the decisive authority over who lives and dies.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

Upbringing has nothing to do with it. People from good families become killers, Paedos rapists. The whole 'it's because they had a bad upbringing' thing is a myth.

Yet another sweeping statement with nothing to back it up, delivered with such an air of pseudo authority that it might just impress some, but certainly not me.

If you want to debate a point at least give a counter argument, not just "it's a myth". You talk about people from "good families" without actually defining what that means. Kids brought up in ostensibly "good" families offend, so perhaps those "good" families need to be examined more closely.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yet another sweeping statement with nothing to back it up, delivered with such an air of pseudo authority that it might just impress some, but certainly not me.

If you want to debate a point at least give a counter argument, not just "it's a myth". You talk about people from "good families" without actually defining what that means. Kids brought up in ostensibly "good" families offend, so perhaps those "good" families need to be examined more closely.

Like I said before it's the whole nature v nuture argument, something I am actually learning about at the moment. Some say that people are born evil, or that mental illness is in the genes, others argue that it's during childhood where ALL behaviours are learnt, there really isnt any conclusive proof either way which is why the debate continues to rage on about it, so noone is right or wrong.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by angus58

Yet another sweeping statement with nothing to back it up, delivered with such an air of pseudo authority that it might just impress some, but certainly not me.

If you want to debate a point at least give a counter argument, not just "it's a myth". You talk about people from "good families" without actually defining what that means. Kids brought up in ostensibly "good" families offend, so perhaps those "good" families need to be examined more closely.

Infact you'll find that the fact they all come from bad backgrounds is a sweeping statement in itself. I do know what I'm talking about actually. I think you're just trying to nit pick. Can you back up the opposite? Nope, didn't think so.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MissKittyFantastico

Like I said before it's the whole nature v nuture argument, something I am actually learning about at the moment. Some say that people are born evil, or that mental illness is in the genes, others argue that it's during childhood where ALL behaviours are learnt, there really isnt any conclusive proof either way which is why the debate continues to rage on about it, so noone is right or wrong.

I would say it's a bit of both but more so nurture, just my opinion though

[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

Indeed, but how many parents are going to be looking out for signs of Psychopathy? I mean, it's not something they expect and most probably don't know what these signs are, maybe put it down to "being young". And the torturing and killing of animals is in usually quite extreme cases. The build up is often quite subtle, and then they are far too gone when they realise what their child really is or has become

I never said they should be looking out for pyschopathic tendencies, but they should be concerned, for example, if their child doesn't want to mix with other children, or takes delight in tormenting the cat, or is bullying kids at school for example. Usually it will be a number of small things that add up to a major concern. It is generally accepted now that some, not all, children who were abused, grow up to abuse children themselves thereby perpetuating the cycle.

As for parents being unaware of what their children are becoming till its too late - I don't buy that. If you are involved in your children's lives day in, day out, you would have to be a pretty rubbish parent not to spot any signs of aberration until it was beyond the point of no return.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

I would say it's a bit of both but more so nurture, just my opinion though

I personally think it's a bit of both also, I do actually believe that some people are born with an evil seed in them (I know that sounds like a cliche but it's the only way I can explain it lol) and then if they are brought into a certain environment where there is no parental discipline and strict guidelines, the seed grows and grows until they begin to act on it. But on the other hand, perfectly 'normal' well adjusted seeming children can fall into the wrong crowd, have parents that give them no guidance or are bad role models, and they can end up turning into monsters, hence why I said the argument for both sides is inconclusive. But you do get cases where a child has a loving family, no childhood trauma, does well in school, and then goes on to commit hideous crimes, this is why it's so hard to pinpoint where it all starts and what the solution is.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by angus58

I never said they should be looking out for pyschopathic tendencies, but they should be concerned, for example, if their child doesn't want to mix with other childrens, or takes delight in tormenting the cat, or is bullying kids at school for example. Usually it will be a number of small things that add up to a major concern. It is generally accepted now that some, not all, children who were abused, grow up to abuse children themselves thereby perpetuating the cycle.

As for parents being unaware of what their children are becoming till its too late - I don't buy that. If you are involved in your children's lives day in, day out, you would have to be a pretty rubbish parent not to spot any signs of aberration until it was beyond the point of no return.

Obviously they should be concerned in cases like that. But as I said, the build up is often subtle.

Well, it happens. As you know, Psychopaths are particularly good liars, and they develop that early. So parents may not as detect wrong doings and they're not with the child 24/7. And I think sometimes they might be subconsciously aware but to an extent block it out. Like, "No my child couldn't possibly have done that" it probably would be a nice thing for a parent to see. They may think it's a phase, or they're grow out of it. Parents are learing too, as I said they probably don't know the signs, or think they can help the child themselves. Doesn't make them bad parents.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by InOne

Infact you'll find that the fact they all come from bad backgrounds is a sweeping statement in itself. I do know what I'm talking about actually. I think you're just trying to nit pick. Can you back up the opposite? Nope, didn't think so.

There you go again - I never said that all psychopaths come from "bad" families either. There are plenty of kids who have had the most terrible upbringings who grow up to be absolutely fine human beings, so there must be other factors in play, which is why I asked for your definition of a "good" family. A lot of people define a good family as consisting of a mother and father from a financially stable background, steady jobs, good schools, good education etc. But what about the day to day family dynamics, life experiences,divorced parents, sibling rivalries, traumas, bereavements etc, etc, all factors which can over-ride the apparently good influences?

And what of children brought up in the care system - what studies have been done to asses the percentage of those children who grow up to offend.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by angus58

There you go again - I never said that all psychopaths come from "bad" families either. There are plenty of kids who have had the most terrible upbringings who grow up to be absolutely fine human beings, so there must be other factors in play, which is why I asked for your definition of a "good" family. A lot of people define a good family as consisting of a mother and father from a financially stable background, steady jobs, good schools, good education etc. But what about the day to day family dynamics, life experiences,divorced parents, sibling rivalries, traumas, bereavements etc, etc, all factors which can over-ride the apparently good influences?

And what of children brought up in the care system - what studies have been done to asses the percentage of those children who grow up to offend.

I meant a "good family" as in someone who is not constantly physically or psychologically aboused. Obviously there will be stresses at times, but that is part of growing up.

And I don't know? I wasn't aware that was a problem.