[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

but what is anti semetic about what hes said

Which ever way you look at it, he said nothing anti-Semetic.

There are many Jews who don’t support racism, and will never support the ill treatment the Palestinians receive. Many Jews see Zionism as an evil that created a racist state and so to call anti-Zionism "anti-Semitism," verges on obscene.

Don’t get me wrong here, I believe the Jews are far more sinned upon than do the sinning. The reason Zionism grew like it did is because of post traumatic periods in history. Jewish people have spent too long being expelled from tribal lands but for Zionist forces to do the same to the Arabs makes them just as tribal and barbaric as the rest.

What we have to accept is, if you are a Zionist Jew then for you, Zionism is at the very heart of being Jewish and so you could be offended when someone speaks out against Zionism. What the Zionists must accept is, many of those speaking out are none Zionist Jews and for that reason alone, It can't be seen as anti-Semitism

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Which ever way you look at it, he said nothing anti-Semetic.

There are many Jews who don’t support racism, and will never support the ill treatment the Palestinians receive. Many Jews see Zionism as an evil that created a racist state and so to call anti-Zionism "anti-Semitism," verges on obscene.

Don’t get me wrong here, I believe the Jews are far more sinned upon than do the sinning. The reason Zionism grew like it did is because of post traumatic periods in history. Jewish people have spent too long being expelled from tribal lands but for Zionist forces to do the same to the Arabs makes them just as tribal and barbaric as the rest.

What we have to accept is, if you are a Zionist Jew then for you, Zionism is at the very heart of being Jewish and so you could be offended when someone speaks out against Zionism. What the Zionists must accept is, many of those speaking out are none Zionist Jews and for that reason alone, It can't be seen as anti-Semitism

the news media is hysterical, they seem to label so much as anti semitism when clearly in some cases its either a criticism of israel or support of palestinians. in this case its merely a conversation about whether the nazis ever supported zionism. I cant see why merely discussing that is racist. but maybe I am missing the intent or connotation here

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

the news media is hysterical, they seem to label so much as anti semitism when clearly in some cases its either a criticism of israel or support of palestinians. in this case its merely a conversation about whether the nazis ever supported zionism. I cant see why merely discussing that is racist. but maybe I am missing the intent or connotation here

What he touched upon was The Haavara Agreement Transfer https://academic.oup.com/leobaeck/ar...rectedFrom=PDF

[Northern Monkey]

Does anyone know why he said it yet?or in what context?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Does anyone know why he said it yet?or in what context?

There's a video with what he actually said here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...xpulsion-video

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There's a video with what he actually said here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...xpulsion-video

Right so he was defending Naz Shah on a radio show.

[MTVN]

Very good article which people should read if they don't understand why Livingston has upset so many people with his comments. What he said is one interpretation of events but in history there is very little that is 'fact'.

So … Ken … A lot of people – predominantly the good people, of course, of the British left – have been tweeting to tell me that Ken just “stated a fact”. Here is the problem with what Livingstone said. Because Ken Livingstone did not state a fact.

The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, in the 1930s, when the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back.

That is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sentence looks ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees to get more of them to leave the country. It is just the thin edge of the wedge of Nazi horror.

The real problem, in a way, is the tone of Livingstone when giving this interpretation. There’s no sympathy. No compassion – no sense of the tragedy behind this. It’s just complacently presented as a deal that Hitler made with German Zionists, and therefore – and this, of course, is the point, the banal, **** point – a way of confirming that Zionism is bad. Through an association with the top bad thing, Hitler.
...

I’ll leave with the words of Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, before he went mad, according to Livingstone. So exactly in that period when he was, as we know, supporting Zionism. I may have as much of a tin ear for meaning as Livingstone has for antisemitism, but I can’t, for the life of me, make this out to be as pro the idea of the creation of a Jewish state as Livingstone insists it is: “While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.”

Full article: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-zionism-jews

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Very good article which people should read if they don't understand why Livingston has upset so many people with his comments. What he said is one interpretation of events but in history there is very little that is 'fact'.

Very interesting

[DemolitionRed]

There is enough old documentation on this to accept it as fact but certain people clearly try and rubbish this. If it wasn't fact, why did Goebbels have a special coin minted to celebrate Zionism? The coin had a Star of David on one side and a Swastika on the other side. http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07...hree-card.html

[DemolitionRed]

This wasn’t about making Zionism bad (according to David Baddiel’s article in the Guardian). Zionism formed its own reputation long after the formation of Israel. None of us would be talking about Zionism now if they were all living happily under the same balmy sky. Try looking at a map of Israel and Palestine 100 years ago and then compare it with a map of Israel and Palestine today. Ethnic cleansing is the thing that disturbs many of us about Zionism, not Germany offering them a resettlement agreement nearly a hundred years ago.

I’m sure people don’t give a damn what the Germans did for the Zionists, its just a small part in history and at best, interesting. To suggest it made Zionists Nazi supporters is just as ridiculous than calling Zionism anti-Semitic.

[Livia]

It never fails to amaze me the lengths some people will go to in order to excuse anti-Semitism. It's the same people who are all over any kind of negatively toward any other group. And so shall it always be. Saying there is no evidence of Labour's anti-Semitism and the fact that it's more widespread in Corbyn's Labour than it is in any other party.

Thank you MTVN for a little balance, I knew there had to be some in there somewhere and it didn't necessarily have to come from me.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

It never fails to amaze me the lengths some people will go to in order to excuse anti-Semitism. It's the same people who are all over any kind of negatively toward any other group. And so shall it always be. Saying there is no evidence of Labour's anti-Semitism and the fact that it's more widespread in Corbyn's Labour than it is in any other party.

Thank you MTVN for a little balance, I knew there had to be some in there somewhere and it didn't necessarily have to come from me.

It's called being objective Livia.
I haven't said there is no evidence within Labour at all therefore your twisting has fallen at the first hurdle, my point was, is and will continue to be that it exists in all parties and it is wrongly being ascribed to Labour only due to an orchestrated media campaign.

Your 'balance' consists of of journalists opinion which in other threads you have explicitly rubbished as worthless....that is until they marry with your standpoint.

[joeysteele]

I said earlier here I wished Livingstone would keep quiet.

However whether he is wrong as to his perception of history or right in parts.

The charge of anti semitism against him is ridiculous and those that level same do a massive injustice as to clearing out anti semitism from all Parties and throughout society where any anti semitism may exist too.

Really the witch hunts on this in the media particularly are becoming more pure spite likely than much of real anti semitic substance.

[the truth]

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

[Livia]

Originally Posted by the truth

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

It's scary that he thinks like that and feels free to voice it. And really, if it was just this, it would have been forgotten now. But add it to all the other claims that Jewish MPs and party members have made, all the hearings and party expulsions on the grounds of anti-Semitism, and you'll see Labour is waaaay out in front in the anti-Semitic stakes. The evidence is there.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

You are right to question that,because it isn't anti semitism from Livingstone.
It is more likely being used as such which actually does a massive disservice as to dealing with genuine anti semitism,no matter where it may be.

[DemolitionRed]

These are the protests right wing media don't want you to see.

Do you think the people here are anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist?

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_...st_zionism.htm

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

These are the protests right wing media don't want you to see.

Do you think the people here are anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist?

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_...st_zionism.htm

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

It's real - apparently.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

Are you saying that all Jews are Zionist? or that no Jews are anti-Zionist?
If not, what was the point in your comment?

[Kizzy]

Why not check some of the information within the text before you mock the content?...

Here's a source you may deem 'credible'

http://www.realnews247.com/bbc_refusniks.htm

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You do realize that some people won't accept anything from a person they don't like in here and will listen to bull**** from the people they do like... Waste of time Kizzy.

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

I go by facts and having family who are anti-Zionist Jews. What do you go by?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

What personally did you have against the information posted by DR?
'It's real' is such an ambiguous response.

[Niamh.]

Closed for cleaning