[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Cherie needs knocking down a peg or two but this is hardly the thread for it.

the fact that we independently chose to roast Cherie for no reason at the same time on the same thread.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not saying she's thick I just think probably no less likely to be drawn into it than, let's say, your average Tibber. Not a smart one like you or me obviously but your basic ones like Cherie or LT.

Obviously she wouldn't go around saying properly dumb things like "****ty people support equally ****ty person. Next."

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

the fact that we independently chose to roast Cherie for no reason at the same time on the same thread.

We love a clique.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Cherie needs knocking down a peg or two but this is hardly the thread for it.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not saying she's thick I just think probably no less likely to be drawn into it than, let's say, your average Tibber. Not a smart one like you or me obviously but your basic ones like Cherie or LT.

Obviously she wouldn't go around saying properly dumb things like "****ty people support equally ****ty person. Next."

Not soggy ground and Toy slapper having fun at my expense

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

This is kind of the problem these days. You can't agree with someone on one issue without the "but, but, but" brigade assuming it means you're best friends with them and agree wholeheartedly with every opinion and action from their entire lives.

Sorry Marsh I missed this comment when I was reading the thread but you're so spot on there, we don't all have to agree 100% on everything surely to just be able to get on normally in real life (or forum life) people should never always agree on everything

[Ninastar]

I agree with niamh.

Also I’m not a big fan of those whole “you have a similar opinion to person X on this, so therefore you’re automatically a bigot/homophobe/terfs/racist etc” thing that the super left people tend to do. It does more damage than good

[Oliver_W]

It's interesting how people supporting JK come from all over the political spectrum, while hating on her for being a female-focused feminist seems to be a left wing thing.

[Elliot]

Yeah her essay was cited as a reference for a republican politician trying to oppose lgbtq+ protections for housing and employment. That’s really when you know you’re on the right side of history, when you become an ally to the anti lgbt right wing

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

I agree with niamh.

Also I’m not a big fan of those whole “you have a similar opinion to person X on this, so therefore you’re automatically a bigot/homophobe/terfs/racist etc” thing that the super left people tend to do. It does more damage than good

Sorry people aren’t super nice and accepting of people trying to take away trans people’s and lgbtq+ peoples protections and rights?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Yeah her essay was cited as a reference for a republican politician trying to oppose lgbtq+ protections for housing and employment. That’s really when you know you’re on the right side of history, when you become an ally to the anti lgbt right wing

Anyone can cite anyone else, it doesn't mean the person being quoted agrees with everything the person using their words says

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Sorry people aren’t super nice and accepting of people trying to take away trans people’s and lgbtq+ peoples protections and rights?

It's not that she wants to take rights away from LGBT people, but she's prioritising female rights to single sex spaces.

When it comes down to it, females' rights to single sex spaces, and transwomen's rights to use female spaces are incompatible. She's a feminist, so of course she'd prioritise the former.

She's never shown any indication of wanting to take away other LGBT rights.

[Ammi]

...wonders what type of feminist I am..I don’t ‘hate on her’...and neither do many other people../left/right or centre...male to female are female as well and a part of equality in consideration and inclusion of female...

[bots]

i find it difficult to comprehend that thousands of people can physically hate someone and wish death on them from a single text snapshot on the web.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...wonders what type of feminist I am..I don’t ‘hate on her’...and neither do many other people../left/right or centre...male to female are female as well and a part of equality in consideration and inclusion of female...

Their sex is male, and always will be. That can't be changed. If your feminism includes male people, that's fine, but not all forms of it do

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Yeah her essay was cited as a reference for a republican politician trying to oppose lgbtq+ protections for housing and employment. That’s really when you know you’re on the right side of history, when you become an ally to the anti lgbt right wing

Anyone can cite any essay or article in whatever context they want to, it has absolutely NO bearing on the original piece nor on the author of that piece. It's this sort of confused anti-intellectualism that's causing half of the problem at the moment in all honesty. "A group that my group hates liked something that you wrote... you are ENEMY toot toot sound the horns alert the troops target acquired".

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Their sex is male, and always will be. That can't be changed. If your feminism includes male people, that's fine, but not all forms of it do

...honestly, Oliver...I don’t know what to say to you ...so forgive me, I’m going to say very little and not continue with any possible conversation that could have been had...the born gender is not what trans is...otherwise trans wouldn’t exist and any thoughts or views on it wouldn’t exist either...Harry Potter style, magic-ed away...but so far as the gender of males is concerned as well in the way you’re also referencing it...?...of course, feminism includes males because it supports equality of genders which I would hope that, that is something that male gendered people, strive for as well...I really would hope that, Oliver...I’ll leave it at that...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...honestly, Oliver...I don’t know what to say to you ...so forgive me, I’m going to say very little and not continue with any possible conversation that could have been had...the born gender is not what trans is...otherwise trans wouldn’t exist and any thoughts or views on it wouldn’t exist either...Harry Potter style, magic-ed away...but so far as the gender of males is concerned as well in the way you’re also referencing it...?...of course, feminism includes males because it supports equality of genders which I would hope that, that is something that male gendered people, strive for as well...I really would hope that, Oliver...I’ll leave it at that...

I didn't bring gender into it at all, only biological sex. One can change the "gender role" in which they choose to live, and make an effort to look physically like the one they weren't born in. But biological sex is fixed.

You can treat transwomen as women, in fact you should, but when it comes to sex-based rights, there is a bit of a conflict with single sex spaces. Some women are happy to allow transwomen into their spaces, but some aren't. Both views are valid, but it hinges on if they want to uphold the rights of females or transwomen.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I didn't bring gender into it at all, only biological sex. One can change the "gender role" in which they choose to live, and make an effort to look physically like the one they weren't born in. But biological sex is fixed.

You can treat transwomen as women, in fact you should, but when it comes to sex-based rights, there is a bit of a conflict with single sex spaces. Some women are happy to allow transwomen into their spaces, but some aren't. Both views are valid, but it hinges on if they want to uphold the rights of females or transwomen.

transwomen well they always felt like women which is why they make the gender change

NikkieTutorials i have always recognized as women, even before her coming out as trans (which i was surprised about given how feminine she just looks already)

i find Nikkie looking more feminine than Caitlyn (and yes i've only since recently started accepting Caitlyn as a women, but that was more because i knew her for such a long time as Bruce Jenner, the olympic champion athlete) so in Caitlyn's case i wasn't being transphobe, but it was more down to the fact i knew her as Bruce for a longer time, so i needed time to get used to seeing now as Caitlyn in the media

[user104658]

To be fair, when we're talking gender identity that's where there really SHOULD be a distinction.

"Man"/"Woman" is a social gender term and thus open to interpretation; the idea that a man can become a woman is fine and certainly, the idea that gender roles are almost entirely social constructs seems quite likely.

"Male"/"Female" should be reserved as biological terminology because, otherwise, there IS no meaningful biological terminology and that presents a whole host of problems.

So a male can be a woman, but a male can't become female.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair, when we're talking gender identity that's where there really SHOULD be a distinction.

"Man"/"Woman" is a social gender term and thus open to interpretation; the idea that a man can become a woman is fine and certainly, the idea that gender roles are almost entirely social constructs seems quite likely.

"Male"/"Female" should be reserved as biological terminology because, others ie, there IS no meaningful biological terminology and that presents a whole host of problems.

So a male can be a woman, but a male can't become female.

South Park has worked this into their series storyline too, remember

Mr Garrison who had become Mrs Garrison

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Yeah her essay was cited as a reference for a republican politician trying to oppose lgbtq+ protections for housing and employment. That’s really when you know you’re on the right side of history, when you become an ally to the anti lgbt right wing

Having her words taken out of context for dubious means does not make her their ally. That's just dumb.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

South Park has worked this into their series storyline too, remember

Mr Garrison who had become Mrs Garrison

forgot all about that! Kyle's dad became a dolphin, and Kyle (or Stan?) had a race change!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sorry Marsh I missed this comment when I was reading the thread but you're so spot on there, we don't all have to agree 100% on everything surely to just be able to get on normally in real life (or forum life) people should never always agree on everything

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

If you read it you'd know that she composed an essay on her thoughts and also has put problematic trans stereotypes in her writing. Also it doesn't matter how many tweets there are if there is even one that's problematic.

Sorry to be bringing this up again but I've just finished reading it and there is zero trans stereotypes in that book, none of the characters in it are trans for a start. I didn't want to properly comment on it until I'd read the whole thing but

I'll spoiler this even though it's not really that spoilerish -

Spoiler:

the one male character who wore a womens coat and wig wasn't trans and he wasn't a cross dresser, he just literally put a victims coat on to look vaguely like a woman in the dark to grab another victim. It's not an out there idea to think that a woman alone at night would be less afraid of another woman coming towards her than a man. Anyone who's claimed that her book was in anyway trans-phobic clearly has not read it

[Niamh.]

Oh and to add (this is a big spoiler so don't open if you do ever plan on reading the book)

Spoiler:

The actual killer was a woman anyway

[UserSince2005]

shes a disgrace