[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by InOne

But high profile cases don't get let into the general population do they and don't really get the same benefits? I think it's something like 52 people who will never get out. There was a good doc on CI called 'When life means life' or something like that.

Not sure about benefits, but the sentences even in high profile cases seem to not be actual life. Look at that jon venables kid. Yeah he was a child when he did it, but he re-offended and was let out a second time.

Even in not high profile cases though, murder should mean life in prison to me

[InOne]

Ahhh found the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e-life_tariffs

[Vicky.]

From your link

The list does not include the likes of child killers Roy Whiting and Ian Huntley, who were not issued with a whole life tariff but were instead given minimum terms which are likely to last for most if not all of their remaining life.

'Likely' to me is not good enough for murder. Especially for a child killer.

[InOne]

There would be mass uproar if those got out I'm sure. I was just pointing out though that everyone on that list would've probably been put to death if the death penalty was in the UK and that there's no chance they'd get out now they're finally locked up, so prison does do its job in that sense. I know there's the child killers bit but I imagine that's slim if none.

But I do agree that murder should mean definite life in most cases.

[the truth]

Its absolutely insane the amount of fight we put up against killing mass murderers or the energy and money and time we spent arguing for the rights of butterflies to live in green areas yet here we have 170,000 innocent babies murdered every year and no one in power gives a damn. anyone remember when nadine dorres tried to make a speech and ask a question on this in parliament but was shouted down and laughed and , and a sneering david camerons pitiful spineless response amidst the heckling was "oh I give up" yes you sure did cameron you gave up on hundreds of thousands of murdered babies.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by the truth

Its absolutely insane the amount of fight we put up against killing mass murderers or the energy and money and time we spent arguing for the rights of butterflies to live in green areas yet here we have 170,000 innocent babies murdered every year and no one in power gives a damn. anyone remember when nadine dorres tried to make a speech and ask a question on this in parliament but was shouted down and laughed and , and a sneering david camerons pitiful spineless response amidst the heckling was "oh I give up" yes you sure did cameron you gave up on hundreds of thousands of murdered babies.

You probably kill millions of sperm every day, isn't that according to your logic potentially millions of half-babies?

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

You probably kill millions of sperm every day, isn't that according to your logic potentially millions of half-babies?

Not really seeing as sperm don't morph into babies lol unless im totally dumb we are neither sperm nor egg just a chemical reaction created when they meet.

Did you think that before we were born we were sperm who lived in our fathers testicles?

[lostalex]

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

Well exactly - I'm not really sure why this would even matter. Unless we're going to start supporting the murder of unwanted babies now, too. In fact theres a pretty good case to be made for some ADULTS not being self aware.

...although, it does remind me of a South Park episode when Cartmans mum takes him (aged 7) to the abortion clinic and asks for an abortion. Heh.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well exactly - I'm not really sure why this would even matter. Unless we're going to start supporting the murder of unwanted babies now, too. In fact theres a pretty good case to be made for some ADULTS not being self aware.

...although, it does remind me of a South Park episode when Cartmans mum takes him (aged 7) to the abortion clinic and asks for an abortion. Heh.

God I love that program. Or the one where he's on a talk show telling everyone "my mom ****ed me right there in the Best Buy" (because she wouldn't buy him an iPad) and everyone's booing her

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

i think everyone should be sterilized. imho.

solve the problem once and for all.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

I know some adults like that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

Of course

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

[Z]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Zee

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

you get it.

The vast majority of the universe is not self aware.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by Zee

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

But that's different, if a person is going to naturally die anyway turning off life support isn't murder as that person is not supposed to be alive anyway, they should and would be dead from whatever injury they have suffered.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

If your heart is naturally beating and you can move and have brain activity that is the very definition of living.

Its not a state of mind its scientific fact that abortion is killing a living being.

[lostalex]

Where's cloning? we should reproduce by cloning already, do we have the technology to do that yet?

I don't want to have to have a HALF child, i want an exact replica of myself. This is the year 2014, were's cloning???

seriously though, why aren't we cloning yet? we had a cloned sheep in the 90's, then we haven't heard anything about it since.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Where's cloning? we should reproduce by cloning already, do we have the technology to do that yet?

I don't want to have to have a HALF child, i want an exact replica of myself. This is the year 2014, were's cloning???

seriously though, why aren't we cloning yet? we had a cloned sheep in the 90's, then we haven't heard anything about it since.

Because everyone would end up related and inbred. This post has to be a joke right?

[Kizzy]

Am I living in an alternate universe?.. So the theory is if you can't fend for yourself you should just die?
The very old, the very young, the physically and or mentally incapable?.. where does it end? I guess with the extinction of the species.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Am I living in an alternate universe?.. So the theory is if you can't fend for yourself you should just die?
The very old, the very young, the physically and or mentally incapable?.. where does it end? I guess with the extinction of the species.

The only certainty in life is death. Everyone dies at some point. There are all sorts of moral and ethical debates about the right to life, so many that it's impossible to ever be 'right' or 'wrong' in my opinion. If someone's in a coma for years (e.g. Ariel Sharon) - are they really alive anymore?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

The only certainty in life is death. Everyone dies at some point. There are all sorts of moral and ethical debates about the right to life, so many that it's impossible to ever be 'right' or 'wrong' in my opinion. If someone's in a coma for years (e.g. Ariel Sharon) - are they really alive anymore?

Yes but the debate here is whether it's right to kill someone before they've had a chance to live?
Of course everyone dies at some point.. you're just stating the obvious there.
People come out of comas.. the brain repairs as it's shut down that's what a coma is.
So yes, they are alive and in a state of stasis whilst the reconstruction of neural pathways occurs. There's always a chance that the body may be too aged or weak to be supported during this time and die anyway.