[Twosugars]

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

The whole thing is a disgrace. Democracy my ar**! These people are dishonest, deceitful and downright determined to get their own way. They care little for Mr and Mrs average.

I really hope the majority of voters are not so easily fooled and accepting of the way their intelligence has been and continues to be insulted. We should not bow down to a second vote and should hold on to our ‘democracy’ with everything we have.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

The thing is Kirk, you're totally right with our first point there: The people who allowed the vote to happen very stupidly believed that they had predicted the outcome of the vote and that it would be remain... and the vote was lipservice to "put the issue to bed". Thus, they didn't bother to look into the practicalities of separating from Europe at all before holding the vote.

As far as I can tell, that's left us with a situation where it's not that the government is "dilly dallying" or specifically trying to "get out of it"... it's that dopmestic and European politics and trade became so intertwined over the last few decades that untangling them "fully", even with the best will to do so in the world, is proving to be practically impossible. They're procrastinating because they want the dust to have settled A LOT before they admit that they have no idea how to make it work.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Good post brillo,no real need to add anything except that burning effigies achieves nothing just proves the childish mindset of some.

But you're calling it childish when it's against trump, and you laughed and added to the hate-wagon when Kirk suggested doing it to Abbot? Picking both sides and neither sides of the fence at the same time here. It's very odd.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That doesn't really matter though. Like I said - I fully understand why many people think that a second vote is unwarranted and unnecessary. I understand the government's inclination to hold their ground and not hold such a vote.

However, if there WAS a vote, so long as it is an open public vote, and the result is a true reflection of how genuine voters have voted... then there's just no way it can be described as "undemocratic".

For example; there was no reason at all for May to hold a General Election last summer. No one wanted it... it was a total waste of time... and the result ended up doing nothing but further muddy the waters. However... that doesn't mean that the result was undemocratic.

People are being deceived and misinformed by those having the the nerve to claim people were deceived and misinformed prior to the original vote. We are simply going around in circles and a second vote would be no more ‘honest and enlightened’ than the first. That in my book would make it undemocratic - because some will have given in to the constant fear-mongering by many. That is not an informed decision.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

But you're calling it childish when it's against trump, and you laughed and added to the hate-wagon when Kirk suggested doing it to Abbot? Picking both sides and neither sides of the fence at the same time here. It's very odd.

Hyperthetically joking about it and actually doing it are hardly the same!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Hyperthetically joking about it and actually doing it are hardly the same!

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently

Give it a break - nothing cliquey about you and yours then! :

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That in my book would make it undemocratic - because some will have given in to the constant fear-mongering by many. That is not an informed decision.

Then every vote is undemocratic, because this goes on before every vote or election and has done since the very beginnings of democracy... it's always been there and you either believe it's a system that people can see through / work around, or you don't. You surely can't claim that voters were immune to being swayed by fear before the original referrendum and the result was legitimate... but THIS time, all of a sudden the very same voters ARE going to be swayed by fear, making a second vote undemocratic?

Either both of the results are fair and democratic... or neither of them are.


[Note: I'm actually on the fence about where I stand on the above statement. I agree that these votes are manipulated by interested parties and the media... I think the results very rarely reflect "the real truth of the matter"... but that's not a new thing starting with Brexit, it's been going on with the GE since voting became fully open to the general public - 100 years ago this year.]

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Then every vote is undemocratic, because this goes on before every vote or election and has done since the very beginnings of democracy... it's always been there and you either believe it's a system that people can see through / work around, or you don't. You surely can't claim that voters were immune to being swayed by fear before the original referrendum and the result was legitimate... but THIS time, all of a sudden the very same voters ARE going to be swayed by fear, making a second vote undemocratic?

Either both of the results are fair and democratic... or neither of them are.


[Note: I'm actually on the fence about where I stand on the above statement. I agree that these votes are manipulated by interested parties and the media... I think the results very rarely reflect "the real truth of the matter"... but that's not a new thing starting with Brexit, it's been going on with the GE since voting became fully open to the general public - 100 years ago this year.]

As the first was fair and democratic there is no need for a second - simples!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

As the first was fair and democratic there is no need for a second - simples!

Again... There being no need for one doesn't make it Undemocratic to have one.

[Tom4784]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently

Who left?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently

Is that me you're alluding to? I'd like to take the credit but the fact is that 'this negative tibb cliquey stuff' has always been present on here - though it was usually 'Left-leaning' members 'gang-banging' solitary members who disagreed with their joint skewed viewpoints.

Oh, and then it erupted again during my absence, I believe.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

See - this is why SD is such fun, your slant on who the liars were on the EU facts and figures is the POLAR opposite of mine.

And we will NEVER agree no matter how many posts we make.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

I take your point Twosugars and respect you for making it civilly.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Who left?

Nobody said anybody left.. unless you know something I don’t

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

[/B]

Is that me you're alluding to? I'd like to take the credit but the fact is that 'this negative tibb cliquey stuff' has always been present on here - though it was usually 'Left-leaning' members 'gang-banging' solitary members who disagreed with their joint skewed viewpoints.

Oh, and then it erupted again during my absence, I believe.

No, I’m not pointing fingers. I was just stating that there was a good two-week break from all the petiness, cliques, and drama a little while back, but it seems to have all come back very recently.

I’m not aware of the time that it ‘erupted in your absence’ but I’ve been wrong before.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Nobody said anybody left.. unless you know something I don’t


No, I’m not pointing fingers. I was just stating that there was a good two-week break from all the petiness, cliques, and drama a little while back, but it seems to have all come back very recently.

I’m not aware of the time that it ‘erupted in your absence’ but I’ve been wrong before.

Dunno maybe you need to look at your own interactions, for someone who doesn't want drama, you seem very keen to upset certain members, that's the way I see it anyway

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Dunno maybe you need to look at your own interactions, for someone who doesn't want drama, you seem very keen to upset certain members, that's the way I see it anyway

I dunno, none of that happened when a handful of members left a little while back, doesnt seem like the obvious conclusion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

I dunno, none of that happened when a handful of members left a little while back, doesnt seem like the obvious conclusion.

A quick run down of the threads in SD will show a pattern of behaviour from you, it doesn't take Einstein to see it either

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

Considering that Micheal Gove was telling people to ignore expert advice on what would happen if we left the EU, it doesn't paint a strong picture for the likely outcome and being optimistic won't change that. If the leaders of the Leave movement were trying to tell people to ignore expert advice just because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then what does that say for the chances of a successful Brexit?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

The whole campaign was based on lies and presumptions from both sides, as an electorate we shouldn't accept that, run a clean campaign with facts not scaremongering then I will accept the result