[MTVN]

Well the Cameron line is that the Russians were bombing these moderate forces who we should be helping and that will convert them to Islamists. I don't really agree with him but thats his logic I guess

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

BOTS has no "facts" but is aware roughly what goes on, enough to form an valid opinion, like most people in the country. And you have no "facts" to counter him.

And yes, I would willingly take my own advice always, it's good advice after all.

Right so effectively most in the country and you and bots can form a valid opinion without the need for facts... but I can't.
If I googled you some facts would you be willing to reevaluate?....

[bots]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Right so effectively most in the country and you and bots can form a valid opinion without the need for facts... but I can't.
If I googled you some facts would you be willing to reevaluate?....

How many personal comments have been made about me in this thread now?

I stated that the military strategy I quoted is standard stuff, freely available in the public domain, which it is. If its being questioned, its easy enough to verify if one takes the time to do so.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

How many personal comments have been made about me in this thread now?

I stated that the military strategy I quoted is standard stuff, freely available in the public domain, which it is. If its being questioned, its easy enough to verify if one takes the time to do so.

Well I was responding to you directly and then Livia involved herself... you might want to ask her why we are discussing your opinion.
If I googled 'military strategy' would I know as much as you? cool, I'm on it.

[DemolitionRed]

The least bad outcome would be that it solves nothing and kills lots of innocent people. The more likely outcome will be that it makes matters much worse and kills lots of innocent people.

The two are not separable. Killing lots of innocent people never solves anything and usually makes things much worse.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The least bad outcome would be that it solves nothing and kills lots of innocent people. The more likely outcome will be that it makes matters much worse and kills lots of innocent people.

The two are not separable. Killing lots of innocent people never solves anything and usually makes things much worse.

I think it's more or less irrelevant at this point DR... Without meaning to be an alarmist, it only takes a quick glance back at the last few days, then weeks, then years and a functional knowledge of politics and history to figure out the glaringly obvious. What we are discussing and witnessing here is not about Syria, ISIS or Terrorism. It's the starting pistol for WW3. Game over, kids.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I think it's more or less irrelevant at this point DR... Without meaning to be an alarmist, it only takes a quick glance back at the last few days, then weeks, then years and a functional knowledge of politics and history to figure out the glaringly obvious. What we are discussing and witnessing here is not about Syria, ISIS or Terrorism. It's the starting pistol for WW3. Game over, kids.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/syria/65094...tate-oil-trade

[Ammi]

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

Totally agree

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

mm that's a good point actually Ammi

[arista]

Its now looking
like a Terrorist Attack
due to his amount of weapon's he had stored.

The FBI
confirm Jihadist Material now found
at his weapons store.
Tactical Footprint

[bots]

wrong thread green man

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

IS, ISIS, ISIL, or DAESH - they are still just the same turds. Why would a revenge attack by the same terrorists under a different stupid name be worse than anything we've seen?

Do you envisage Jihadists stepping into phone boxes and coming out dressed in a blue cape and Superman outfit then flying into the sky faster than a speeding bullet?

These scumbags are weaker and more desperate now, but our Intelligence Services are already well aware of the degree of vigilence they need to keep one step ahead of them.

Certain people are all too ready to attribute the lack of any ISIS Paris-style atrocities in the UK to the 'niceness' of our Corbyn-style 'friends' ISIS themselves, rather than give credit where it is due - to our Intelligence Services.

Don't fool yourselves - if it wasn't for our intelligence services we would all have witnessed more than one such attack.

Amazing post Kirk. 1000% correct!

[joeysteele]

Just about all I am learning even now in the last 2 days since this vote,is making me think the wrong decision was made.
I agree with Demolition Red again above, this could end up being really catastrophic.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Just about all I am learning even now in the last 2 days since this vote,is making me think the wrong decision was made.
I agree with Demolition Red again above, this could end up being really catastrophic.

We are due a Attack
in the UK.

we just do not know yet
what and the place

Even if we never started bombing Syria
we are still the on the hit list

[user104658]

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Exactly, the stark realisation that whoever got out by any means were lucky, as we fund razorwire, attack dogs and drone strikes it now dawns that all the innocents are now trapped and hope is all but gone.
Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Please provide links showing the general public that you speak about who are no longer hooting and crowing to support the airstrikes?

[Northern Monkey]

Nobody savours the thought of civilians being killed.Everyone has probably imagined what it would be like if we were at war with another country like Russia and our families were being bombed here in the UK.It is a terrible thought and when you think of any collateral damage which may and probably will occur in Syria(especially from the Russians who have 'dumfire' weapons which are relitavely innacurrate) i'm sure most people feel great sympathy.
But we are at war,Yes a very unconventional war but it's still war.I don't think any of the MP's took their vote decision lightly.It is poosibly one of the hardest decisions they've ever had to make.
Whether it is the 'right' decision is debatable.I mean is there really a 'right' decision on an issue like this?Both vote outcomes have there pitfalls.
I personally believe that it was the 'better' decision to expand airstrike into Syria.I think leaving this Islamic State to keep growing and growing is the worst decision and we should help to 'nip it in the bud' before it gets past the point of no return.People are dying now in the most gruesome ways imaginable in Syria by the hand of IS.They need to be stopped and as Ammi said it is not a question of 'if' we do it but 'when' we do it.I would argue that sooner rather than later is the 'better' option.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

Damn right I'm claiming the higher ground!
#NotInMyName

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Damn right I'm claiming the higher ground!
#NotInMyName

A difference of opinion does'nt by default make something "higher ground".

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

A difference of opinion does'nt by default make something "higher ground".

Oh I disagree, I don't have my conscience to fight with so I feel I'm already on at least firmer ground. If that is a bitter pill I make no excuses for illuminating the gulf between the two options.