[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Just a little point of note for those saying that bombing ISIS in Syria is such a bad thing.

ISIS are currently making Syria such a wonderful place to be and live that MILLIONS of Syrians have fled their country. Wow ISIS must be really wonderful to the people for that reaction eh?

I've already responded to this exact criticism in the post replying to kirk, directly above yours so... Yeah. Re-read if desired, use dictionary and thesaurus if struggling.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Just a little point of note for those saying that bombing ISIS in Syria is such a bad thing.

ISIS are currently making Syria such a wonderful place to be and live that MILLIONS of Syrians have fled their country. Wow ISIS must be really wonderful to the people for that reaction eh?

Wonderful...Who has ever intimated such a thing?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

I've deleted some posts. Stick to the topic instead of discussing each other.

I can't see the situation improving to be honest. Think I'll opt out and let the thread return to back-slapping, fist pumping and the verbal fellating of the armed forces.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Again making the mistake of assuming that when I say we don't have anything to be proud of, I am intimating that ISIS does. I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I am well aware that ISIS are far worse, but that the existence of such evil does not necessarily make the opposition "good". Something that you seem unable to grasp - and yet it's me who is being "juvenile and simplistic"?

You've lost your ability to see the shades of grey Kirk, or, if you haven't, you're doing a damned good impression of someone who has. You have the world in your head neatly divided into Heroes and Monsters.

I guess it must be an easy moral stance to take but, unfortunately for me, it's just not one that I can delude myself into.

Not so at all.

YOU may not be proud to be British, and - as you repeatedly post - may not believe in Democracy, and may think the British are of low intellect and stupid, but I DO NOT agree with you.

I have lost no ability to 'see shades of grey', but on the matters which we most commonly 'debate' on here, it actually comes down to 'Black' and 'White'.

Yes - you may say ISIS are bad or wrong etc, but I do not witness the same vehemence from you in your posts for ISIS and their evil deeds that I do when you are criticising the UK and its Government, and its people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not so at all.

YOU may not be proud to be British, and - as you repeatedly post - may not believe in Democracy, and may think the British are of low intellect and stupid, but I DO NOT agree with you.

If you have a point here, I'm afraid I'm missing it? I'm well aware that we disagree on these matters and always will, and... To be blunt... I just don't care?

I have lost no ability to 'see shades of grey', but on the matters which we most commonly 'debate' on here, it actually comes down to 'Black' and 'White'.

Ahh so you have only lost your non-binary perspective when it comes to certain issues. Duly noted. I personally believe (no... I know) that there is no such thing as black and white.

Yes - you may say ISIS are bad or wrong etc, but I do not witness the same vehemence from you in your posts for ISIS and their evil deeds that I do when you are criticising the UK and its Government, and its people.

Because the fact that an organisation like ISIS does not represent me or my beliefs in any way is self-evident. I don't NEED to shout from the rooftops that ISIS don't act in my name, that I don't agree with them.

The government of my own country? My own countrymen spouting their toxic crap and merrily cheering on warmongering bandits and thieves? Yes, I feel the need to tell anyone who will listen that I despise them and everything that they represent, and that they do NOT and likely NEVER WILL be acting in my name.

[the truth]

That must have been one of the lowest days ever in the british parliaments long and chequered history. The quality and narrowness of the debate was pitiful, it was barely students union level. Virtually every aspect of this multi faceted complex situation was overlooked or ignored. what is the masterplan? how long are we bombing? where who and why are we bombing? what are we doing about the boundaries, the borders around Syria, Iraq, turkey, Greece, france, Germany...what about the Schengen agreement that lets everyone into Europe without any paperwork? what about the kurds, the money for oil from turkey, the multi million arms and weapons being suppied to the rebels and getting into the hands of ISIS? what happens with the 100s of thousands of refugees, are we building bigger and better camps, are we and others sending in border patrols, peace keeping soldiers like the germans? what about terrorist websites etc etc ...the list is endless...all we got was Hilary benns pathetic overhyped amateur dramatics about these nasty isis...duh really Hilary? gee thanks for that awesome insight...but how do we make each other safer?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I can't see the situation improving to be honest. Think I'll opt out and let the thread return to back-slapping, fist pumping and the verbal fellating of the armed forces.

I've already done that,it just gets worse and more intolerant. Said all I had to anyway even if it did get shouted down by those who see those appearing against as terrorist sympathisers.
They even get claps for it.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Wonderful...Who has ever intimated such a thing?

People who argue against bombing as it will have such a bad effect on the Syrian people, when millions have fled the terror in Syria

Hitlers Germany killed millions of Jews during the second world war and tried to take over Europe. ISIS are doing a very similar thing at the moment.

Should we have buried our head in the sand during WW2 too? After all, the innocent German people suffered from our bombing.

[Kizzy]

Don't be intimidated, I don't care if I'm accused of being anything terrorist sympathiser, traitor, water of a ducks back Joey.

[MTVN]

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Hitlers Germany killed millions of Jews during the second world war and tried to take over Europe. ISIS are doing a very similar thing at the moment.

Should we have buried our head in the sand during WW2 too?

Attempting to equate ISIS to WW2 era Nazi Germany is an absolute shambles of an argument and I can only imagine that you either know that deep down, or you know absolutely nothing about WW2. I think it's the former. I think you're making dubious comparisons for some sort of effect. Maybe understandable / inevitable given the way this thread has gone but... Come on. Please.

Bye Godwin.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I've already done that,it just gets worse and more intolerant. Said all I had to anyway even if it did get shouted down by those who see those appearing against as terrorist sympathisers.
They even get claps for it.

I know Joey - people attempting to slur anyone who doesn't agree with the official line on this as terrorist sympathisers and "traitors" really is on a whole other level. Even for this forum, which as we all know can get quite messy.

I don't think it would be happening if our own Prime Minister hadn't started that ball rolling though, which when you think about it is straight up terrifying. It's blatant, dangerous, undemocratic, authoritarian propaganda coming from the mouth of the most powerful man in the country and people are more than happy to repeat it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

People who argue against bombing as it will have such a bad effect on the Syrian people, when millions have fled the terror in Syria

Hitlers Germany killed millions of Jews during the second world war and tried to take over Europe. ISIS are doing a very similar thing at the moment.

Should we have buried our head in the sand during WW2 too? After all, the innocent German people suffered from our bombing.

Hang on weren't these people cockroaches a few weeks ago?...

You're going off on a tangent now, the two eras are not comparable.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

Leave your ban hammer by the door on your way out....

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

People who argue against bombing as it will have such a bad effect on the Syrian people, when millions have fled the terror in Syria

Hitlers Germany killed millions of Jews during the second world war and tried to take over Europe. ISIS are doing a very similar thing at the moment.

Should we have buried our head in the sand during WW2 too? After all, the innocent German people suffered from our bombing.

Bit of a silly and reaching comparison there. Germany, at the time, were one of the leading powers in Europe which meant that it was one of the biggest powers in the world.

IS do not have the resources or the manpower to be anywhere near the same level threat as WW2 Germany. They have no allies and no influence beyond the area they control and there's no chance of them ever being able to launch an offensive attack or invasion on western soil beyond their rudimentary terror attacks. Everything else is grandstanding on their part which is why they take responsibility for every and any terror attack going, it makes them seem more threatening than they actually are.

I imagine that IS will fall quickly once the situation elevates beyond air strikes and into a full blown invasion of Syria.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Attempting to equate ISIS to WW2 era Nazi Germany is an absolute shambles of an argument and I can only imagine that you either know that deep down, or you know absolutely nothing about WW2. I think it's the former. I think you're making dubious comparisons for some sort of effect. Maybe understandable / inevitable given the way this thread has gone but... Come on. Please.

Bye Godwin.

totally agree...The only real similarity is their doctrine is pure evil

the Nazis were reposnible for at least 80 million deaths ......they had the most powerful most sophisticated most organized army the world has ever seen , with all the best weapons and the scientists behind it along with a leader who was the devil himself. They simply destroyed country after country, burning them and their people down to the ground...their hate was for pretty everyone other than the aryan race. Blighty alone was hammered by 1000 Luftwaffe bomber raids a night? This rabble are a bunch of circus travelling nomads compared to the Nazis. Thankfully they have infinitely less power, organization, ingenious minds and weapons, but in their own way they are just as evil.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

There are as many "for" as "against" by my count. If you feel that "those members who supported action" are at risk then that can only because their arguments are less compelling.

... Surely?

Otherwise the reverse could or should be just as true. I'm pretty sure infraction trigger fingers must be itching all round to be honest.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Hang on weren't these people cockroaches a few weeks ago?...

You're going off on a tangent now, the two eras are not comparable.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Bit of a silly and reaching comparison there. Germany, at the time, were one of the leading powers in Europe which meant that it was one of the biggest powers in the world.

IS do not have the resources or the manpower to be anywhere near the same level threat as WW2 Germany. They have no allies and no influence beyond the area they control and there's no chance of them ever being able to launch an offensive attack or invasion on western soil beyond their rudimentary terror attacks. Everything else is grandstanding on their part which is why they take responsibility for every and any terror attack going, it makes them seem more threatening than they actually are.

I imagine that IS will fall quickly once the situation elevates beyond air strikes and into a full blown invasion of Syria.

I disagree, if ISIS are left to expand unchecked, and they will as that is their stated aim, it will be exactly the same as we faced with Germany. How many countries are ISIS allowed to invade before our Poland is reached?

As to resources. ISIS have huge resources, and the more they are allowed to expand, the greater their resources will become. Thats why they expand.

Their stated aim is to take over the world, do people believe its a little joke they are having or a serious threat?

I will use the term bury head in sand again, there seems to be a lot of it going on in this thread.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I disagree, if ISIS are left to expand unchecked, and they will as that is their stated aim, it will be exactly the same as we faced with Germany. How many countries are ISIS allowed to invade before our Poland is reached?

As to resources. ISIS have huge resources, and the more they are allowed to expand, the greater their resources will become. Thats why they expand.

Their stated aim is to take over the world, do people believe its a little joke they are having or a serious threat?

I will use the term bury head in sand again, there seems to be a lot of it going on in this thread.

exactly the same?

instead of bombing them we need to first close all borders, pull down their websites....then send in a massive army of foot soldiers and corner them in one area.

the open borders , such as the Schengen agreement are insane

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I disagree, if ISIS are left to expand unchecked, and they will as that is their stated aim, it will be exactly the same as we faced with Germany. How many countries are ISIS allowed to invade before our Poland is reached?

As to resources. ISIS have huge resources, and the more they are allowed to expand, the greater their resources will become. Thats why they expand.

Their stated aim is to take over the world, do people believe its a little joke they are having or a serious threat?

I will use the term bury head in sand again, there seems to be a lot of it going on in this thread.

You're getting caught up in hysteria.

They aren't exactly being 'left to expand unchecked', they're in direct conflict with Iran, several countries are hitting them with air strikes and it's not long until those said countries begin a full blown invasion. IS are pretty much getting ****ed from every angle and it's only going to get worse for them. Nobody is burying their heads in the sand but you've certainly taken the IS propoganda to heart. They WANT you to think they're a major threat because they aren't and they need people to fear them because they don't have the resources to be a serious threat to our way of life.

We're more of a threat to ourselves if we give into fear and hysteria.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There are as many "for" as "against" by my count. If you feel that "those members who supported action" are at risk then that can only because their arguments are less compelling.

... Surely?

Otherwise the reverse could or should be just as true. I'm pretty sure infraction trigger fingers must be itching all round to be honest.

Well I thought people would realise I was joking with that, I don't have much interest in taking the debate seriously when it gets like it has been the last few pages

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You're getting caught up in hysteria.

They aren't exactly being 'left to expand unchecked', they're in direct conflict with Iran, several countries are hitting them with air strikes and it's not long until those said countries begin a full blown invasion. IS are pretty much getting ****ed from every angle and it's only going to get worse for them. Nobody is burying their heads in the sand but you've certainly taken the IS propoganda to heart. They WANT you to think they're a major threat because they aren't and they need people to fear them because they don't have the resources to be a serious threat to our way of life.

We're more of a threat to ourselves if we give into fear and hysteria.

I'm not getting caught up with hysteria, I have significant experience in this area.

You didn't answer my question either. What country will they need to invade before you consider them a serious threat. Do you have a threshold of what you consider acceptable, or will you just say ... hey ho ... not our problem until they are on your door step.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I disagree, if ISIS are left to expand unchecked, and they will as that is their stated aim, it will be exactly the same as we faced with Germany. How many countries are ISIS allowed to invade before our Poland is reached?

As to resources. ISIS have huge resources, and the more they are allowed to expand, the greater their resources will become. Thats why they expand.

Their stated aim is to take over the world, do people believe its a little joke they are having or a serious threat?

I will use the term bury head in sand again, there seems to be a lot of it going on in this thread.

Nazi Germany and the allied forces went toe to toe with military tech, tanks, planes, battleships, submarines, modern (for the time) equipment for ground troops, the works. They were a very real, extremely well organised and maintained, and very credible military force with skilled tactician and generals, backed by a powerhouse war economy.

ISIS have 60-year-old AK's and home made bombs? Do they even have the equivalent of ONE WW2 era tank or bomber? Let alone sophisticated modern weaponry? drones??

This is why I can only assume you must be joking or at least deliberately exaggerating. Hugely. Talk to me when ISIS launch their first Aircraft Carrier and there might be some sort of vague comparison.

[Kizzy]

well well well...

' I believe that only one politician deserves to emerge with an enhanced reputation as a result of the week’s events. That figure is Jeremy Corbyn.
Whether or not you like Mr Corbyn (and I profoundly disagree with many of his policies), there is no denying that he emerged from the arguments over Syria as a man of moral courage, integrity and principle.
Indeed, how interesting that after months of denigrating Corbyn, the Blairite tendency — together with those excitable inhabitants of the Westminster bubble — have been made to look silly in their prediction that Labour would lose the Oldham by-election.
In the real world, it seems the voters have more time for the Labour leader than the metropolitan commentariat.
Faced with bitter hostility from his own side on Wednesday, Mr Corbyn stood his ground. Courteously, he set out his honest doubts about the wisdom of bombing raids on Syria.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...lary-Benn.html

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I'm not getting caught up with hysteria, I have significant experience in this area.

You didn't answer my question either. What country will they need to invade before you consider them a serious threat. Do you have a threshold of what you consider acceptable, or will you just say ... hey ho ... not our problem until they are on your door step.

You have significant experience with both WW2 Germany and ISIS? I'm at a loss as to what that could even possibly mean. You either need to elaborate (a lot...) or accept that statements like that are not going to be taken seriously.