[optimisticcynic]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

Arguing that stating you would not knowingly get together with a trans person is ignorant is flawed logic, as that makes heterosexual men and women instantly homophobic. “How can they say they’re straight when they haven’t met everyone of the same sex yet?”
Agreeing that people have the right to determine how they want to live does not necessarily dictate that they should agree with the rationale behind the decision. As with religion, I may respect that someone converts to Catholicism, but I don’t have to genuflect whenever I walk past a cross.
How can anyone demanding the right to identify as they desire criticise others for doing the same thing?
Sounds like in this instance a main driver is an external locus of validation and a need to accordingly assert control through her own sense of gender identity. This is abusive, especially whee others might be paralysed by a fear of offending, and India is clever enough to be aware of this.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by optimisticcynic

Arguing that stating you would not knowingly get together with a trans person is ignorant is flawed logic, as that makes heterosexual men and women instantly homophobic. “How can they say they’re straight when they haven’t met everyone of the same sex yet?”
Agreeing that people have the right to determine how they want to live does not necessarily dictate that they should agree with the rationale behind the decision. As with religion, I may respect that someone converts to Catholicism, but I don’t have to genuflect whenever I walk past a cross.
How can anyone demanding the right to identify as they desire criticise others for doing the same thing?
Sounds like in this instance a main driver is an external locus of validation and a need to accordingly assert control through her own sense of gender identity. This is abusive, especially whee others might be paralysed by a fear of offending, and India is clever enough to be aware of this.

Good post and very true.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

I am not a gay man, therefore I would not date a gay man. Is that any more clear? It's certainly not ignorant at all. Genuwine saying I am a straight man and would not date a trans woman is no different. It's not transphobia at all, just like a gay man, a straight man is allowed a preference.

[Livia]

Not being attracted to someone isn't racist. If someone's not into black guys, I think that's just like not being into blonde guys, or guys with tats. For some men, dating India would be like dating a man, she looks like a man - I'm stating that as a fact and not to be insulting. We can't all pretend that fancy everyone so as not to offend, surely! I'm pretty sure there are men out there who wouldn't date me for a variety of reasons... and one of them would be because I'm Jewish. My reaction is that it's their loss.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not being attracted to someone isn't racist. If someone's not into black guys, I think that's just like not being into blonde guys, or guys with tats. For some men, dating India would be like dating a man, she looks like a man - I'm stating that as a fact and not to be insulting. We can't all pretend that fancy everyone so as not to offend, surely! I'm pretty sure there are men out there who wouldn't date me for a variety of reasons... and one of them would be because I'm Jewish. My reaction is that it's their loss.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Jake.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

But that is his choice and no one can tell him he's wrong

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

But that is his choice and no one can tell him he's wrong

I didn’t say it wasn’t his choice, I was clarifying what he’d said

[MTVN]

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Well, they are trans women rather than women, a topic that has been thrashed around in recent days. There is a big difference and that's where sexual preference comes in. Its not discriminatory as it is a preference.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Trans women have been men. Surely they must know that not all men will want to be with someone who has a manmade vagina and who used to be a male. Alternatively there will be other men who adore trans women.

And as for acceptance... there is a huge section of society that doesn't see trans women as "real women". Because they're not. They are transsexual women. I've said this before but it's worth saying again... transsexual women are not the same as those of us born a woman... but they are worth exactly the same.

[optimisticcynic]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

“Hope” is the key term here. The hope that others see you as you wish to be seen is not a “right”. Nothing can be so simple. My belief that I am heterosexual is likely as upsetting for anyone who is non-binary but was born in a male category, but this is a reality based on my experiences and desires. I am sad that it may cause them sadness, but as long as my sexual attraction to them is the only way that they are excluded, this is a fact of life. If something in my life changes this, then I review my stance and metamorphosise into my next stage of life. This may have happened for some regarding trans people had India not been such an unstable, self-loathing, projecting tosspot. If she is the only sample of the transgender community that some of the public have ever encountered, imagine the damage she is doing.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Its not really refusing to entertain the idea of being with a transwoman though. Its refusing to entertain the idea of being with a male person. The trans does not come into it as much as actual sex does I know its 'trendy' to pretend sex is not real and does not matter these days, so I am pretty old school in my views, but sex does actually matter and to say it does not, is homophobic and actually heterophobic (if I believed that was a thing, just for sake of argument) at the same time!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jake.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

Maybe he's just not attracted to transsexuals. I don't see a problem with that. Not everyone fancies everyone.

[waterhog]

we all have preferences that we find attractive and are draw to people. just because you say it - does not make you wrong.


I am looking for a long term lover that can stomach ???? poetry. and I will promise her a love of my life poem every day of my life. but she can not be called narcissis ?

[Livia]

I wonder what the answer would be if someone asked Ginuwine whether he would date someone born a woman... who is over 50. I can guess what the answer would be and I doubt any of the 50+ women in there would go and throw themselves on the bed sobbing.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

I wonder what the answer would be if someone asked Ginuwine whether he would date someone born a woman... who is over 50. I can guess what the answer would be and I doubt any of the 50+ women in there would go and throw themselves on the bed sobbing.

Exactly. It is not up to some to decide who others should/should not want to date. We all have personal preferences from the large to the small. No one wants to live in that kind of nanny state.

[Withano]

I'm sure there are some out there who would only date transgenders. There is at least some 'preference' in it - it doesnt instantly come down to transphobia.

I get why India is upset in a way, but I think she's too self-centric to understand any type of negativity related to her.

[Tom4784]

It's just a matter of preference, nothing wrong with it and you can't really help who you are attracted to or not. Some people prefer certain builds or hair colours, some people just aren't attracted to certain things and I don't think that's prejudice in any way shape or form.

Malika pretty much nailed the situation on the head.

[Vicky.]

Put quite simply, if sex did not matter...then everyone would be bi. But sex does matter, hence heterosexual, homosexual AND bi. I find this pretending that sexuality needs to be 'got over', that sex is not a real thing, or that strap ons are the same as real dicks...fairly offensive actually. As is the instance in a few places that its horrendous and bigotted if someone would not consider shagging a transperson...as if it a transwoman is exactly the same as a woman, and a transman is exactly the same as a man. Ignoring the fact that its NOT the same as scientists have not discovered how to do total body swaps yet.

I mean, we can pretend we think there is no difference, but its not true it is. Its 'nice' to pretend you cannot see a difference between India and the other women in there, to pretend that a person who spend 50 years as a man and now looks vaguely like a woman due to advances in plastic surgery and messing around with synthetic hormones, is the same as someone who is a biological woman, but its just lies.

[Marsh.]

Oh. It depends.

It would be like saying a straight woman who marries an effeminate man must be gay or bi.

[Marsh.]

But speaking of the genitals. How do they get erect?

Is the surgery that good or do they have to blow it up?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But speaking of the genitals. How do they get erect?

Is the surgery that good or do they have to blow it up?

A pump inside one of the testicles :S

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

A pump inside one of the testicles :S

Not here for them pulling a foot pump out.

[Marsh.]

How does the vagina get wet? Or do I not want to know? :/

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

How does the vagina get wet? Or do I not want to know? :/

The ones made from colon have a natural lubricant (as guts...have a lubricant ). Other I expect needs lube.