[setanta]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

do you condone the the attacks on the Israeli soldiers as they boarded the boats?

Yes, they were acting like pirates and the crew had every right to feel aggrieved and hostile.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by setanta

Yes, they were acting like pirates and the crew had every right to feel aggrieved and hostile.

every right to bludgeon them with iron bars and try and drown and kill them


?

get real

[setanta]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

every right to bludgeon them with iron bars and try and drown and kill them


?

get real

I doubt very much that the Israeli's didn't provoke them a little. What am I even talking about.... invading a ship in international waters is provocation enough. They f$cked this one up badly.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by setanta

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals

Somehow i doubt that.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Somehow i doubt that.

You can doubt all you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by setanta

You can doubt all you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Me neither, i smell BS.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Me neither, i smell BS.

Again, doesn't cost me a thought.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by setanta

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

They have been condemned for retaliating in international waters - they are not condemned for their actions to defend their state and to run checks.

The ships were clearly offered a free run into Israel so they could pass the aid on to the right sources but they (as this whole operation was run by Hamas) wanted to take it to Gaza. How utterly ridiculous.

Would you allow people to just walk into your
home, when you are having problems in your home? Would you? I really doubt it.

Also, I've already spoken to my friends in Gaza about this and they think these idiots coming in on pirate ships were an utter joke.

[Shasown]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):



The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):




The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

oooh Ooooh Oooh... they don't say nomadic settlements so that must be the case... because it's a WEBSITE. Bow down to the WEBSITE and the INTERNETS Gods.

Jesus Christ man... this is ridiculous.

OOOh... I know... I will post a pro-islamic image from a pro-socialist website in order to make my point clear.

What can you not get through your head about the way the world works? What?

Let me make it completely clear here.

Towns and villages do not make a country. Is that clear?

Economies, ownership, building and development, jobs, national borders, trade relations

Basically everything that makes an economy makes an economy. I have well provided you with a clear explanation that these arabs did ******* all over centuries over millenia other than fight each other after their command, destroy, convert and conquer failed because they were just radical extremists plundering across the middle east and they moved around, over and over again like nomads as different nations took over their lands. They weren't in one place for a long time and there was no national border.

What part of the fact where I have told you that no national border, no governing group - because all those little dots are not a state, they are not country - they are muslims killing muslims.

Muslims, killing muslims. Understand that.

When an Arab was sent to the UK to speak for arabs, the vast majority of Arabs didn't want him to speak for them. They would have had muslims killing muslims again like they have had for over a millenium.

If all you have is oooh, they had this mandate, ooh, they went to the US, ooh, they went to the UK, oooh and then that happened - then you will never in your life understand why Israel was created and why muslims are just going to kill each other until the end of time.

I have tried in vain to explain this to you but if you're going to dilly dally around thinking that these so called "Palestines" have ownership over that area because ooh, out of the blue, they were settled there then you are wrong. They were not Palestinians but seperate, diverse, aggressively hostile groups who were fighting against each other and it was this stability that caused the area to be such a troublesome part of the world to deal with during World War 1.

If you've understood the life of T.E. Lawrence then you'll realise muslims will never ever be happy with each other because they have an infinite number of doctrines preached, not from state to state but from village to village to town to town. These grand economists and political scientists know this and what's funny, the funding dynasties of the middle east from the Saudi Oil families to the government of Iran know this and exploit the middle east and the differnce is, the biggest difference is - you have been taught by the internet while people who control the world and know all this have been taught in the best Universities in the world.

You can go back to these ridiculous left wing socialist re-enactments of history but the truth is Israel is the best thing to happen in the middle east because if it hadn't then you'd still have people in the middle east ****ting in the deserts.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Yes I will. That is a good enough example you just gave.

The Americas.
It would be something like French Canadians insisting they are the 'true Americans' and 'American People' and then demanding the USA stop occupying their land.
(I think they might have a BETTER argument than Palestinians!).

And again we get back to who is 'Palestinian'?
Well Jews lived there too and were called 'Palestinians'.
Since almost ALL the people in Gaza and West bank are from families OUTSIDE that map then they are actually outsiders and foreign people taking over the 'true Palestinians' land right?

here again we get back to the 'reality check' on this. Nearly every single Jew is a recent arrival.
Nearly every single muslim or 'palestinian' is a recent arrival.
If not themselves then their family back a few generations.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

So Jordanians ought to be outraged or should Brits be outraged?

Again, this was a region and the people on there today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are not from there (meaning not from those cities and lands and from that time).

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

I think Truck explains this just perfectly but I'd once again remind you that the people we see today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are rarely anyone actually from those places,
and,
while you can find a few families here and there you can ALSO FIND JEWS who were called 'Palestinians' who were from that time and place,
but,
Nothing you see today is realistically anything to do with those handful of people who were from that time and region.

Yes, Israelis will also sometimes find a native jewish family who have been in Palestine for many centuries,
and,
the Jordanians and Arab Muslims will find a guy who's family has actually been in the 'Palestine region',
but,
by far and wide and for any realistic and meaningful understanding the vast majority are ALL immigrant families.
Israelis from Russia, Europe, USA, Africa.. basically Jew from everywhere,
and,
The ones now calling themselves 'Palestinians' from Jordan and (long list) of Arab Muslim (and other) countries who often came as Immigrant Workers helping build Israel.

That is the 'real story' today and I certainly do not hold that against 'Palestinians' either.
That is fine.
I don't think less of them for moving there to get jobs. Good for them,
but,
Im getting sick and tired of having to pretend they are like 'Natives' whos land is being 'Occupied',
and,
pretending we don't know this whole thing is being used by the mostly arab muslim world to eliminate Jews from the region.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):



The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

The pro-Israel people on this web site are so far out of their league, it's laughable. No wonder Britain is full of uneducated chav trash.

[Claymores]

Originally Posted by letmein

The pro-Israel people on this web site are so far out of their league, it's laughable. No wonder Britain is full of uneducated chav trash.

Shas is hilarious - instead of allowing himself to get wound-up he just points out the deficiencies in their arguments. I've tried winding Tel in the past with daft comments and he just does it to me too

[bansheewails]

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

[bansheewails]

Originally Posted by MassiveTruck

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

[MassiveTruck]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

I have been away too so I'm back for Big Brother.

War breeds trade. We all need someone to blame.

[keithafc]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

No Surrender has nothing to do with the OO as that is a religious set up for protestants to join if they want. Basically a culture but don't think for a second No Surrender has anything to do with religion or the OO please.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by bansheewails

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

Extremely well said. sorry about double posting, but this is a important point of view. Sad thing is that "liberals" from US and EU are forgetting that religions is behind all of this (especially muslims).

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Extremely well said. sorry about double posting, but this is a important point of view. Sad thing is that "liberals" from US and EU are forgetting that religions is behind all of this (especially muslims).

Of course it is an Islam thing. A Koran thing. It is a lot of people who believe what the Koran is telling them and therefore need to get Jews off the land they understand ought to be 'under the house of Islam'.

In a sense (if not successfully so far) Bush and Blair had a kind of Christian religious agenda [read explanation] and it goes something like this:
- IF you could see Iraq and Afghanistan burst into truly democratic type of societies with 'freedom of speech' and concepts allowing Christian missionaries, Christian conversions,
and,
IF this were to sort of 'snowball' across and through Arab Muslim nations,
then,
You 'could' see situations where the Arab world is no longer voting in or tolerating Islamic governments but 'secular' governments who do not feel obligated to carry out Mohammads orders on Jews.

I don't know.
The prediction I fear comes true is something like this:

The Arab Muslim world will see so many Muslims converting or abandoning Islam and see the coming 'secular revolutions' and there will be one helluva 'animal in a corner' reaction from the hardcore Jihadi types.
They will go too far.
With Russia, with China and with Israel and for that matter even Europe and the USA.
Russia will move down absolutely annihilating them right out of Chechnya and beyond. I mean the actual people will be forced out.
Then China will just stomp every Muslim straight out in the same old-school expulsion or die way.
Then Israel will do it.
Retreating Muslims exploding themselves and carrying out the most horrific ghoulish sickening murders, suicide bombings, child killings etc will all but force the hand of Russia, China, Israel,
and,
that is when it will get REALLY nasty because its something like the Russians and Americans 'racing to take their share of Germany'.
Russian an China will 'race for the stans' and Israel is going to realize they are damn well getting as much as they can too and start taking out parts of Egypt and Jordan etc.

This is bad news for Muslims because it will end up just annihilating the Arab Muslim world back to the stone age (as they say) and there will be no more need to keep them happy or play along like we do now.

Well lets hope that doesn't happen.

[MojoNixon]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

Of course it is an Islam thing. A Koran thing. It is a lot of people who believe what the Koran is telling them and therefore need to get Jews off the land they understand ought to be 'under the house of Islam'.

In a sense (if not successfully so far) Bush and Blair had a kind of Christian religious agenda [read explanation] and it goes something like this:
- IF you could see Iraq and Afghanistan burst into truly democratic type of societies with 'freedom of speech' and concepts allowing Christian missionaries, Christian conversions,
and,
IF this were to sort of 'snowball' across and through Arab Muslim nations,
then,
You 'could' see situations where the Arab world is no longer voting in or tolerating Islamic governments but 'secular' governments who do not feel obligated to carry out Mohammads orders on Jews.

I don't know.
The prediction I fear comes true is something like this:

The Arab Muslim world will see so many Muslims converting or abandoning Islam and see the coming 'secular revolutions' and there will be one helluva 'animal in a corner' reaction from the hardcore Jihadi types.
They will go too far.
With Russia, with China and with Israel and for that matter even Europe and the USA.
Russia will move down absolutely annihilating them right out of Chechnya and beyond. I mean the actual people will be forced out.
Then China will just stomp every Muslim straight out in the same old-school expulsion or die way.
Then Israel will do it.
Retreating Muslims exploding themselves and carrying out the most horrific ghoulish sickening murders, suicide bombings, child killings etc will all but force the hand of Russia, China, Israel,
and,
that is when it will get REALLY nasty because its something like the Russians and Americans 'racing to take their share of Germany'.
Russian an China will 'race for the stans' and Israel is going to realize they are damn well getting as much as they can too and start taking out parts of Egypt and Jordan etc.

This is bad news for Muslims because it will end up just annihilating the Arab Muslim world back to the stone age (as they say) and there will be no more need to keep them happy or play along like we do now.

Well lets hope that doesn't happen.

Russians don't like jews, and China dislike em too (old commie thing). Only thing that they hate em is that US supports em. ****ed up world.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by MojoNixon

Russians don't like jews, and China dislike em too (old commie thing). Only thing that they hate em is that US supports em. ****ed up world.

Oh I agree. It won't be because they are supporting Israel and in my 'apocalypse scenario' I actually figure it would inevitably be (more) bad news for Israel.

Russia is interesting because their original Communist Revolution certainly was top-heavy with Jews. Not everyone but to a point where you can nearly call it a 'Jewish movement' and I'm not just talking Lenin, Trotsky and good old Marx but a long list of the most influential and powerful.
People forget that the 'Purges' did not just come out of nowhere for no reason - it was definitely because Jews were highly disproportional in the top of the system.
(not saying purges were a good idea either.. but just points it out).

China really is fascinating in all this. If you are watching television in Communist China you may catch a Mao 'propaganda' series. Mao is portrayed as this great heroic man and usually saving a baby and all that,
but,
how creepy (if you ask me) is scenes where they will have Mao teaching and preaching and behind him on a wall are portraits of Jews.
(Marx, Lenin, Trotsky as we mentioned before),
and,
Let me tell you something else - not long ago most Chinese wouldn't know who or what a Jew is to do with anything.
Not now.
They absolutely DO know there is a kind of white people called 'Jews' and let me tell you something else:
- Chinese are STILL resentful about the Opium wars. The problem is they used to think that was what the English did to them,
but,
they are now figuring out the 'dealers' in all this were wealthy Jewish families.

Now I'm not trying to tell anyone this is all perfectly accurate and/or should be how people think about things,
but,
I am agreeing with you that this IS what plenty of Russians and Chinese will see and think about when considering whether they want to trust Israel.

On the other hand Russian and Israel will tolerate each other if it means annihilating Muslim Chechnya,
and,
China and Israel will tolerate each other if it means permanently 'solving' the Uyghur 'east turkestan' problem.


What always amazed me is that the Arab Muslims (and i mean the hardcore practicing Muslim ones) do not understand that they can be stomped back to the stone age.
Even after they continually get stomped in small bites and are just losing and getting defeated today,
yet,
they are working overtime to 'ask for it'?

Now I did get an answer to that - its because they do believe Islam will conquer the whole world and in fact sparking a massive and final 'battle of Civilization' will only speed up that promise.

Now 'Christian Zionism' could be a whole another topic unto itself. I'm working on it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

I think we are all, ultimately agreeing on this last idea.

'Samson Complex' comes to mind too.