[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

What sort of comments do you think people were thinking about when they mentioned yours (and other peoples) transphobia.

Its stuff like that above "acknowledging a male person is a male". Clearly she is not a male, does not want to be seen as one, and does not want to live as one. Calling her one is transphobic. Its refusing to accept her as a her, and it is ignorant.

She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Withano

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

[Vicky.]

Her sex is still male. A sex change is not possible. I only brought up her sex as we were talking about the many heterosexual males who claim they (and their penises) are lesbian.

[jaxie]

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

That remind me I much catch up on orange is the new black

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Withano

Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves.

Youre playing with fire there Withano .

[Jamie89]

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....

It was actually tibb that brought my attention to all the self ID issues, and I have a friend in real life who's trans

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

Thanks Brillo that's very kind of you to say

Just an extra thought actually on what I said, I do wonder what it must be like sometimes if we have trans members on here, or if trans people are just viewing the forum. I know that can't really dictate the conversation but in terms of tact I wonder if people would come at it differently if friends of theirs on the forum were trans. But yeah just a thought really.

[Cherie]

Just listening to an interesting debate on this on 5 Live now

[bots]

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

Yes I agree.

This is a very good article actually talking about just that, in it also she pretty much down to a tee describes what I was trying to say earlier about what I think makes me a woman, lots and lots of women have said the exact same thing but when we say it we're told no we're wrong that isn't what makes us a woman, instead we have to just believe what someone else tell us makes us a woman :

My experience of being a woman is, for the most part biological. When I think about what makes me a woman, it’s all tangled up with my female body. It’s the embarrassment the first time I leaked on a chair during my period, the frustration of trying to buy a nice bra in TopShop when I was a D cup and none of my friends had reached a B yet. It’s having sex for the first time, discovering masturbation, having pregnancy scares, feeling my biological clock start to tick as I enter my late twenties. Having adult men shout ‘nice tits’ at me when I wasn’t quite fifteen yet. It’s as simple as having your bra’s underwire poke you in the chest all day or asking a stranger in a bathroom if she had a spare tampon. Small, universal experiences that any other woman – or at least any other cis woman – would understand.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/people...ok?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[Crimson Dynamo]

The reality is a few folk on twitter called her it and frankly no one cares but now things like that are used as news items by media outlets to get views

[Kizzy]

This is beginning to smack of something else to marginalise women, I remember the backlash Germaine Greer got when she refused to acknowledge transfemales as women.

It was revolting and I felt conflicted because I felt exactly the same as her, I fully believe that womanhood is a whole life experience encompassing not just how you act, interact or react but how others do to you and that in many instances is gender specific.. that life experience can't and should't be discounted.

When you M/F transition you are not a woman, when you F/M transition you are not a man, you did not die you were not reborn.

Now not only do we have to fully accept men identifying as women we must accept being relabeled ourselves... No!

[Marsh.]

You're not being being labelled. "Cis" is simply descriptive. Did you reject heterosexual labels?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You're not being being labelled. "Cis" is simply descriptive. Did you reject heterosexual labels?

What are those, Mr & Mrs?

No, because they don't define me do they?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What are those, Mr & Mrs?

No, because they don't define me do they?

Since when do Mr and Mrs denote heterosexuality?

I'm talking about "straight" or "heterosexual" being used as descriptors when discussing sexuality.

But "cis" is suddenly a label being forced on you when discussing trans.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Since when do Mr and Mrs denote heterosexuality?

I'm talking about "straight" or "heterosexual" being used as descriptors when discussing sexuality.

But "cis" is suddenly a label being forced on you when discussing trans.

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

One thing at least we are very much agreed on!

I will never accept the label of 'cis' and I know many feel the same.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Maru

And also, I'm sorry completely to complicate our lives further and about to make this day so much harder... but I have heard cis used also a pejorative... ..

...

*walks away sadly*

So does 'gay' but it's still accurate as a descriptor tbf. 'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult, but then so does something like 'white trash', but the person being described is still white. And it doesn't mean the word 'white' itself is an insult.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

Cis just means that you don't consider your gender to be different to your birth sex. So cis woman would mean you were born a woman and consider yourself to be a woman, is that not an accurate description? In what way does that redefine you?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

Nobody said either defines you.

My question was why you don't mind sexuality descriptors during a sexuality discussion but take issue with a trans identifier or non identifier during such discussion.

Neither defines you but are simple terms used during a discussion of either.

[Maru]

And also, I'm sorry completely to complicate our lives further and about to make this day so much harder... but I have heard cis used also a pejorative... ..

...

*walks away sadly*

[Beso]

So do people suffer from phantom cock syndrom or not?