[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think testing to prolong human life is quite the same as testing to improve the conditions of the current human lifespan tbh. I agree we are overpopulated, but finding a cure for autism is not going to change that.

I also kind of see humans as parasites. Like they say in the matrix film , its always stuck with me. 'Infect' an area, kill it then move on. But we have nowhere to move on to now, so once we kill the world, thats it, and entirely our own doing.

Why do we need to test on animals to find a cure for autism? The physiology isn't the same, the brain isn't the same. We don't really know how the human brain works, but we're willing to put animals with entirely different biological makeup through torturous tests? If scientists were forced to test in a different way, they would. And who checks the animals' welfare? Who checks how many animals are being used? How can people love their pets but be completely unfeeling towards animals in experiments?

Couldn't agree with your final paragraph more.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Why do we need to test on animals to find a cure for autism?

Because we cannot test on humans..next best thing.

The physiology isn't the same, the brain isn't the same. We don't really know how the human brain works, but we're willing to put animals with entirely different biological makeup through torturous tests?

I agree that the brain is not exactly the same and we don't quite know how our brains work.

If scientists were forced to test in a different way, they would.

The only other way is to test on humans, which would never happen. Yeah its fine for testing for flu cures and such (I was going to do that flucamp thing at one stage, partly for the cash and partly to actually help science develop), but it would never be allowed to happen for anything more serious. And we will never advance medically without a way to test potential cures. its a shame that dead people cannot be used for stuff like this really, I know cadavers are used in some stuff, but for brain issues surely they would have to be alive? IDK, I am not a scientist.

And who checks the animals' welfare? Who checks how many animals are being used?

No idea, but I would like to see more checks being made on living conditions of animals both used for testing and used for food.

How can people love their pets but be completely unfeeling towards animals in experiments?

Surely this goes for eating meat too really. As awful as it sounds, a pet is an animal you actually know and like (generally). Animals for meat/testing are just random animals that its fairly easy to just put out of your mind

Couldn't agree with your final paragraph more.

Yup. Its depressing really thinking about it properly.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Because we cannot test on humans..next best thing.



I agree that the brain is not exactly the same and we don't quite know how our brains work.



The only other way is to test on humans, which would never happen. Yeah its fine for testing for flu cures and such (I was going to do that flucamp thing at one stage, partly for the cash and partly to actually help science develop), but it would never be allowed to happen for anything more serious. And we will never advance medically without a way to test potential cures. its a shame that dead people cannot be used for stuff like this really, I know cadavers are used in some stuff, but for brain issues surely they would have to be alive? IDK, I am not a scientist.



No idea, but I would like to see more checks being made on living conditions of animals both used for testing and used for food.



Surely this goes for eating meat too really. As awful as it sounds, a pet is an animal you actually know and like (generally). Animals for meat/testing are just random animals that its fairly easy to just put out of your mind


Yup. Its depressing really thinking about it properly.

Animals bred for meat, slaughtered and sold is not the same thing as putting an animal, a completely defenceless animal bred for the sole purpose of scientific tests. I'm not posting pictures here, but you must have seen some of the appalling stuff they do to animals? Their agony lasts until they're finally killed.

And yes, there are other ways of testing, rather than animal testing. I don't believe most scientists actually like torturing animals and there's a significant push from Scientists all over the world who are using other methods and developing other methods. For instance, in vitro tests using human cell and tissue cultures, computer models and simulations, stem cell and genetic testing, non-invasive imaging techniques such as MRIs and CT Scans and also
micro-dosing, giving people really small quantities of a drug to see what the effects are at a cellular level.

I truly believe that in a few decades time people will be appalled at what we used to do to animals in the name of science.

[Vicky.]

I haven't really seen pics no. As I said, out of sight out of mind kind of thing. I have seen videos and photos of the lives of animals bred for meat though, and also the way they are slaughtered in some places. I don't really see that its much different, except for that the ones bred for meat are killed younger.

I am not too sure we will still be here in a few decades time Reckon theres a large chance we will have killed ourselves off by then. With nukes, more specifically is my thought.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Animals bred for meat, slaughtered and sold is not the same thing as putting an animal, a completely defenceless animal bred for the sole purpose of scientific tests. I'm not posting pictures here, but you must have seen some of the appalling stuff they do to animals? Their agony lasts until they're finally killed.

And yes, there are other ways of testing, rather than animal testing. I don't believe most scientists actually like torturing animals and there's a significant push from Scientists all over the world who are using other methods and developing other methods. For instance, in vitro tests using human cell and tissue cultures, computer models and simulations, stem cell and genetic testing, non-invasive imaging techniques such as MRIs and CT Scans and also
micro-dosing, giving people really small quantities of a drug to see what the effects are at a cellular level.

I truly believe that in a few decades time people will be appalled at what we used to do to animals in the name of science.

Probably so, but the irony is, many of the advanced non-animal testing routes were developed using animal testing as a baseline.

Like I said, my overall thoughts on it are, where there ARE effective alternative methods available then those methods should always be the first port of call, but where there aren't (or aren't yet) then I'd consider it to be a necessary evil. The goal should be to eliminate it completely from being necessary, but, we wouldn't have half of the medical advances we have today without it being used in the past.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

theres a large chance we will have killed ourselves off by then. With nukes, more specifically is my thought.

I reckon disease coupled with antibiotic resistance will get us before nukes do personally. On the bright(?) side, in that scenario it is likely that humans as a species will live on, just at dramatically reduced numbers and also other life on earth will thrive. If it's nukes then Nuclear winter will kill off pretty much everything, maybe with the exception of deep sea life and some of the hardier plants and bugs.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I haven't really seen pics no. As I said, out of sight out of mind kind of thing. I have seen videos and photos of the lives of animals bred for meat though, and also the way they are slaughtered in some places. I don't really see that its much different, except for that the ones bred for meat are killed younger.

I am not too sure we will still be here in a few decades time Reckon theres a large chance we will have killed ourselves off by then. With nukes, more specifically is my thought.

I suppose the difference is that there is huge public awareness of the suffering of farm animals and a huge effort in the last decades to change that both at home an in world farming. And you have the opportunity to buy meat where the welfare of the animal is guaranteed. No such opportunity buying drugs. I think it will go the same way as testing cosmetics on animals, people are appalled by it and people drive decisions.

Don't get inquisitive and Google any pictures of vivisection... too upsetting.

I like to think it'll change in a few decades... but I find myself agreeing with your final couple of sentences... I'm not sure with the nukes. I think Nature will finally find a way of killing a large number of us off.

[Tom4784]

Tbh, it's an unpleasant practice but I have no issue with animal testing for the purpose of medical research. I think this example is a bit needless though, while it's important to understand conditions like autism, I don't think it justifies a practice like this. I'm all for animal testing for medical purposes when that research can save lives but you can't cure autism and simply understanding it better isn't worth the cruelty.

I despise the whole 'experiment on peados' sentiment. For me, it says more about the person making that argument than anything else. It's a hypocritical cruelty when we should be better than those we judge. I've said it a few times in the past but I despise 'armchair' bloodlust. It ain't healthy and it's not just and it's utterly hypocritical.

[thesheriff443]

Humans are the only animal that kills for sport.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Humans are the only animal that kills for sport.

Cats do all the time

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Cats do all the time

and foxes

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and foxes

yep, here's a list :

https://www.ranker.com/list/animals-...on/laura-allan

[Vicky.]

Surprised by dolphins and elephants

[bots]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Surprised by dolphins and elephants

yeah Flipper was a real ****

[user104658]

Killer Whales are assholes too, they kill other types of whale purely for fun

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and foxes

That maybe so but their brains are supposedly not as advanced as ours they don't know they are causing pain and suffereing,it's play for them, whereas we KNOW the pain it causes and just carry on doing it, as we only care about ourselves.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

That maybe so but their brains are supposedly not as advanced as ours they don't know they are causing pain and suffereing,it's play for them, whereas we KNOW the pain it causes and just carry on doing it, as we only care about ourselves.

Maybe Dolphins make excuses for us too

ETA : also they're not that stupid foxes dogs etc know when they're causing pain and when they're playing and that there's a difference. Cats do too, when my cat tries to play with the dog he swipes at him with his paw with his claws kept in, if he's chasing something in the garden his claws are out because he intends to do damage

[Livia]

Lots of animals kill for the sake of it. But I've never heard of one firing a gun, building a bomb or screwing each other over for a profit.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Lots of animals kill for the sake of it. But I've never heard of one firing a gun, building a bomb or screwing each other over for a profit.

My dog would screw anyone over for a piece of sausage tbf.......or basically anything edible

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Maybe Dolphins make excuses for us too

ETA : also they're not that stupid foxes dogs etc know when they're causing pain and when they're playing and that there's a difference. Cats do too, when my cat tries to play with the dog he swipes at him with his paw with his claws kept in, if he's chasing something in the garden his claws are out because he intends to do damage

No they are not stupid far from it,but we are told we are superior and top of the food chain,animals brains do not comprehend,pain and death as we do.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

No they are not stupid far from it,but we are told we are superior and top of the food chain,animals brains do not comprehend,pain and death as we do.

You're just making excuses though, animals can be assholes too but because we're more intelligent we can do a lot more damage, that's the long and short of it imo

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

My dog would screw anyone over for a piece of sausage tbf.......or basically anything edible

Your Eddie looks like he might be tooled up, actually.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Your Eddie looks like he might be tooled up, actually.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Livia

Animals bred for meat, slaughtered and sold is not the same thing as putting an animal, a completely defenceless animal bred for the sole purpose of scientific tests. I'm not posting pictures here, but you must have seen some of the appalling stuff they do to animals? Their agony lasts until they're finally killed.

And yes, there are other ways of testing, rather than animal testing. I don't believe most scientists actually like torturing animals and there's a significant push from Scientists all over the world who are using other methods and developing other methods. For instance, in vitro tests using human cell and tissue cultures, computer models and simulations, stem cell and genetic testing, non-invasive imaging techniques such as MRIs and CT Scans and also
micro-dosing, giving people really small quantities of a drug to see what the effects are at a cellular level.

I truly believe that in a few decades time people will be appalled at what we used to do to animals in the name of science.

Yeah, we are already appalled at the kinds of experiments we used on human beings , in mental health for example... but I don't think it will take decades. I think the shift is already happening... China won't be immune to this shift in thinking like the US is experiencing forever. Unless someone who knows China first hand can chime in to enlighten, I don't think that even the most sterile govt can overcome the spread of ideas through the internet, for example.. It has flung open the doors in terms of how fast and how easily these "waves" and shifts are started, so wouldn't be surprised to see a shift in mindsets local to those countries from just having access and being able to pull up videos for example... I think actually, since the advent of TV and instant communications (telegraph), we've seen an increasingly rapid shift in thought, and we are still adjusting in some ways... so all that still has to level off, our adjusting to and anticipating the effect of these forces, if that makes sense... the cultural worldview of most countries have yet to catch up fully (if any)

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're just making excuses though, animals can be assholes too but because we're more intelligent we can do a lot more damage, that's the long and short of it imo

I think the Chinese been messing with your brain

What's in an animals nature and what's in a humans nature is not the same

Next you will be saying Eddie goes out in the family car running cats over.