[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you're gonna make assumptions can you at least make sure are on the same hemisphere of being right? I'm sick of dealing with your insecurities about racism that causes you to read something out of nothing in every post you oppose. Stick to what people are actually saying, not the garbled version of what you want to hear.

How is it the parents' fault that their children are being taken away from them when it's never happened before unless smuggling or child abuse was involved? Before Trump, immigrants were never separated from their children like this. WHY are children being taken from their parents like this when it never happened before? What is the purpose of doing so aside from cruelty?

As for my 'emotive' language, it's accurate. Go look up any psychologist or expert on abuse's opinions on this matter and they pretty much all say the same thing. This is child abuse.

As I've said before, you cannot deny that this is happening, you cannot deny it's not child abuse or morally reprehensible. This is not an issue or left or right or PC as you are so desperate to make it, this is an issue of whether or not you agree with this practice.

Do you agree with seperating children from their parents in their thousands? Yes or no. There's nothing else to it.

They can hardly fail not to know now can they - news of it is everywhere - but still they try! I’m sick of people who try to exonerate parents of their parental responsibilities when it suits. What do you suggest then - they are locked up with their parents instead. Neither way is ideal but they can’t just let them in until a decision is made as they will ‘disappear’ into the country just as have millions here due to lax laws.

If people have genuine concerns for their safety they should be able to enter as genuine refugees. Economical refugees are a different case and should be judged on the attributes/skills they can offer to the country - the same as for the rest of us.

Many criminals in America are illegalls and the American people have a right to protection from criminals - they have children too!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

They can hardly fail not to know now can they - news of it is everywhere - but still they try! I’m sick of people who try to exonerate parents of their parental responsibilities when it suits. What do you suggest then - they are locked up with their parents instead. Neither way is ideal but they can’t just let them in until a decision is made as they will ‘disappear’ into the country just as have millions here due to lax laws.

If people have genuine concerns for their safety they should be able to enter as genuine refugees. Economical refugees are a different case and should be judged on the attributes/skills they can offer to the country - the same as for the rest of us.

Many criminals in America are illegalls and the American people have a right to protection from criminals - they have children too!

Wow, you really don't understand or have any empathy for immigrants, do you?

Do you think people are just like 'hmm, I fancy going to the US ilegally today, Honey, get the kids and we'll make a day trip out of it!' You've simplified the issue to fit the narrative you want to push. People don't take risks like that unless they have no other choice.

Keeping families together is less barbaric then separating babies and toddlers from their parents and it's what was done for decades before Trump decided to inject his own brand of cruelty into proceedings. I don't get the 'same as the rest of us' line either. Do British or american citizens get ejected from their countries if they aren't deemed worthy? When did they implement that, I wonder?

Your last sentence is a good example of dehumanisation and it's an assumption based on nothing but your own bias but thank you for basically confirming that you support the seperation of children from their parents, that's all I really needed to know.

[The Slim Reaper]

I'll just add that immigrants in the US commit crimes at a far lower percentage per capita than existing citizens.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I'll just add that immigrants in the US commit crimes at a far lower percentage per capita than existing citizens.

What type of crimes?

What are the percentages when broken up into the different categories of crimes?

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Alf

What type of crimes?

What are the percentages when broken up into the different categories of crimes?

MOSTLY TRUE: Undocumented immigrants less likely to commit crimes than U.S. citizens

Because they are undocumented it will be very difficult to find detailed stats Alf, but it seems the statement is mostly true.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Wow, you really don't understand or have any empathy for immigrants, do you?

Do you think people are just like 'hmm, I fancy going to the US ilegally today, Honey, get the kids and we'll make a day trip out of it!' You've simplified the issue to fit the narrative you want to push. People don't take risks like that unless they have no other choice.

Keeping families together is less barbaric then separating babies and toddlers from their parents and it's what was done for decades before Trump decided to inject his own brand of cruelty into proceedings. I don't get the 'same as the rest of us' line either. Do British or american citizens get ejected from their countries if they aren't deemed worthy? When did they implement that, I wonder?

Your last sentence is a good example of dehumanisation and it's an assumption based on nothing but your own bias but thank you for basically confirming that you support the seperation of children from their parents, that's all I really needed to know.

Sorry I forgot - you’re the only one here with any understanding of such issues, despite not even being a parent. If it’s better for the children to be with their parents then fine but maybe an adult environment with many unknown adults, some or many of whom may be less than caring paternal types, was considered an even less suitable environment for them - I dont’t know as I am not privy to that information - but then again neither are you.

You seem to be assuming quite a lot based on your obvious hatred of Trump. I have no strong opinion on him one way or the other so don’t just assume things.

Who is being ejected from their country - if illegal it is not their country. If you mean the country they are choosing to leave who is ejecting them?

I am not dehumatising anyone because you say so (emotive language again) but I also care about the rights of the legal citizens of America who have a right to be concerned about open borders and undocumented people entering their country and the safety issues they could pose to others. If you don’t think dubious characters can’t or don’t pose as caring families you are very naive. America has many South American criminal gangs and drug lords in its midst - do you think they are all legal citizens and pose no threat to everyone else. Why would they want more of the same. People have to be assessed and processed for the safety of all.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Sorry I forgot - you’re the only one here with any understanding of such issues, despite not even being a parent. If it’s better for the children to be with their parents then fine but maybe an adult environment with many unknown adults, some or many of whom may be less than caring paternal types, was considered an even less suitable environment for them - I dont’t know as I am not privy to that information - but then again neither are you.

You seem to be assuming quite a lot based on your obvious hatred of Trump. I have no strong opinion on him one way or the other so don’t just assume things.

Who is being ejected from their country - if illegal it is not their country. If you mean the country they are choosing to leave who is ejecting them?

I am not dehumatising anyone because you say so (emotive language again) but I also care about the rights of the legal citizens of America who have a right to be concerned about open borders and undocumented people entering their country and the safety issues they could pose to others. If you don’t think dubious characters can’t or don’t pose as caring families you are very naive. America has many South American criminal gangs and drug lords in its midst - do you think they are all legal citizens and pose no threat to everyone else. Why would they want more of the same. People have to be assessed and processed for the safety of all.

You don't need to be a parent to have common sense, or empathy.

YouRe essentially making up justifications for this brand of cruelty by saying that children were at risk with their parents and the tried and true previous method of handling immigrant families. You are not protecting children by ripping them from their parents' arms and forcing them into an unknown situation without a support network of any kind.

I'm privvy to the reports that come up, to the audio evidence that you are ignoring that proves the abuse that goes on in these places.

Of course you have a strong view on Trump, he is right wing and you've shown in the past that you struggle to differentiate between different kinds of right wing because you think it's all the same when it's not. It's why you basically try to turn every thread about the right wing (or even unrelated threads) into a Left vs Right situation. There are different right leaning factions with different beliefs. Trump represents an extreme that a lot of other right wing people disagree with. You don't have to go into every thread and screech about the left in order to defend the right.

As for the whole ejection thing, you tell me. I was commenting on a weird line from your own post that you still haven't cleared up.

You're not dehumanising people just because I say so, it's apparent in your words and attitude. You can keep banging on about emotive language but you aren't going to paint over what's happening no matter how hard you try. It is child abuse and you think it's acceptable to put families through that in order to stop....Drug lords? Good ****ing god.

2,000 children in a matter of months, are you saying that is acceptable in order to combat an unrealistic threat? As TS said, the example of gang members is just a way to paint in broad strokes and criminalise an entire race, thus dehumanising them.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You don't need to be a parent to have common sense, or empathy.

YouRe essentially making up justifications for this brand of cruelty by saying that children were at risk with their parents and the tried and true previous method of handling immigrant families. You are not protecting children by ripping them from their parents' arms and forcing them into an unknown situation without a support network of any kind.

I'm privvy to the reports that come up, to the audio evidence that you are ignoring that proves the abuse that goes on in these places.

Of course you have a strong view on Trump, he is right wing and you've shown in the past that you struggle to differentiate between different kinds of right wing because you think it's all the same when it's not. It's why you basically try to turn every thread about the right wing (or even unrelated threads) into a Left vs Right situation. There are different right leaning factions with different beliefs. Trump represents an extreme that a lot of other right wing people disagree with. You don't have to go into every thread and screech about the left in order to defend the right.

As for the whole ejection thing, you tell me. I was commenting on a weird line from your own post that you still haven't cleared up.

You're not dehumanising people just because I say so, it's apparent in your words and attitude. You can keep banging on about emotive language but you aren't going to paint over what's happening no matter how hard you try. It is child abuse and you think it's acceptable to put families through that in order to stop....Drug lords? Good ****ing god.

2,000 children in a matter of months, are you saying that is acceptable in order to combat an unrealistic threat? As TS said, the example of gang members is just a way to paint in broad strokes and criminalise an entire race, thus dehumanising them.

I am aware of different degrees of right and left thanks which is why I pass comments when you blame the right wing for everything Trump says or does.. If you recognise the extreme elements as you claim then call them what they are extreme right instead of trying to tar everyone right of centre with the same brush.

You go on about good families crossing the borders illegally - are you there, do you know these people or are you simply listening to what’s reported from certain sources. You see those type of allegations apply to all. But the reality is I’m not there and neither are you so neither of us can vouch for them.

I support what’s right for the children - whatever that is. But adult detention centres can’t be the best place for them either. Has anyone been charged with all the ‘abuse’ you keep screaming about or is this more of the usual hysteria to make a political point - not only from you but from the rest of the far left, including journalists.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I am aware of different degrees of right and left thanks which is why I pass comments when you blame the right wing for everything Trump says or does.. If you recognise the extreme elements as you claim then call them what they are extreme right instead of trying to tar everyone right of centre with the same brush.

You go on about good families crossing the borders illegally - are you there, do you know these people or are you simply listening to what’s reported from certain sources. You see those type of allegations apply to all. But the reality is I’m not there and neither are you so neither of us can vouch for them.

I support what’s right for the children - whatever that is. But adult detention centres can’t be the best place for them either. Has anyone been charged with all the ‘abuse’ you keep screaming about or is this more of the usual hysteria to make a political point - not only from you but from the rest of the far left, including journalists.

Where have I blamed the right for everything Trump does? I don't see it in this thread so point it out to me. You're the one that paints in broad brush strokes.

Ah, so now you're saying I'm listening to preferred sources, go back a few pages and see that I linked to a DAILY MAIL article which highlighted the child abuse going on. When even the Daily Mail opposes a method of Immigration control, you know it's ****ed.

I can vouch for common sense, if you think thousands of gang members are being smuggled in through children to such an extent it warrants the mass ripping apart of families then I don' know what to say. It's all just an excuse for Trump to hold children hostage so he can put pressure to get his wall.

As for your last paragraphs, if you actually researched the topic for five minutes you would understand what I mean by child abuse. It's not some indivudual that can be charged, the system ITSELF as it stands is child abuse. Honestly, you should look into it, you might actually understand what we're debating then.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Where have I blamed the right for everything Trump does? I don't see it in this thread so point it out to me. You're the one that paints in broad brush strokes.

Ah, so now you're saying I'm listening to preferred sources, go back a few pages and see that I linked to a DAILY MAIL article which highlighted the child abuse going on. When even the Daily Mail opposes a method of Immigration control, you know it's ****ed.

I can vouch for common sense, if you think thousands of gang members are being smuggled in through children to such an extent it warrants the mass ripping apart of families then I don' know what to say. It's all just an excuse for Trump to hold children hostage so he can put pressure to get his wall.

As for your last paragraphs, if you actually researched the topic for five minutes you would understand what I mean by child abuse. It's not some indivudual that can be charged, the system ITSELF as it stands is child abuse. Honestly, you should look into it, you might actually understand what we're debating then.

And that was what I was getting at - were you trying to say individual staff at the centre were abusing the children which would have been truly shocking - or saying the act of removing them from their parents was in itself child abuse. I think your use of the word is typical and don’t think it is as clear-cut as that.

Separating very young children from their parents is hard but they would be cared for well and they may be better than the adult centres. It may well be a safety issue to protect the children. We don’t know the exact reasons but you of course will very willingly believe anything Trump is responsible for is the worst of the worst. How long are they separated for? Are the parents allowed to see them on a daily basis - when you get to the nitty gritty of these things they are rarely as bad as those with an agenda are trying to make out.