[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well like I said 90+% of state schools here are Catholic ethos plus they gave priority to kids who were baptised (which has literally only just been made illegal to do this year) It's a funny one because like i said the schools in Ireland were all set up by the Catholic Church which is why they've got their grip still on there however they're now paid for by tax payers so there's the conflict. Non denominational schools are few and far between so you'd end up having to travel and the kids not wanting to do that because they'll want friends in the area etc etc and logistically it's a nightmare so people were literally baptising their kids to get them into schools and then they had to go to religion class which isn't a fact based class it's further indoctrination. Both my kids are in Secondary school now so the last couple of years I've been putting N/A on the part where it asks what religion they are just to see if anyone would say anything but they haven't

Well like I said you can't do anything about that if it's a religious school obviously they'll
be teaching things a certain way , I'm forgetting you're in Ireland with alot of Catholic schools plus they have stricter rules.

If you put N/A they might just ask your kids surely?? .

[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yeah!!! I'm RARE.

Seriously, Niamh you are correct.

I was not raised as a Christian (my immigrant mother was Buddhist) and I never thought about any type of religion at all whilst growing up, but then in my 20's I started to search (for want of a better word) philosophies and numerous Religions and even mysticism and the paranormal, and it was as a result of this that I 'discovered' Christ and the more that I researched, the further convinced I became that Christianity was for me.

I do not try to impose my personal beliefs on to anyone else - not even my children - but I do vigorously defend my faith when I have come under attack or jeering for it (which has happened).

Each to their own, I say.

A rare gem

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

A rare gem

Thank you, my Queen.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Well like I said you can't do anything about that if it's a religious school obviously they'll
be teaching things a certain way , I'm forgetting you're in Ireland with alot of Catholic schools plus they have stricter rules.

If you put N/A they might just ask your kids surely?? .

No they've never asked my kids.

In regards to Catholic schools, I think in the UK that religious ethos schools are privately run where as here they're state run so every tax payer is funding them no matter what religion they are which is unfair imo state and schools should be separate

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh, I did not mean you, Niamh - not at all. I was speaking generally and more about in real life than TIBB.

Let's face it - NO ONE on here takes the piss out of Christianity more than old baiter LT and if I can remain friends with him then nothing that anyone on here says about Christianity is going to upset me (apart from personal attack).

But, anyway you are correct - Buddism is a way of life and not a religion.

I have had the piss taken over my religion Kirk,I just shrug it off,each to their own,live and let live and all that,I do believe in God (a higher being) and I definitely think there is something beyond.

[Twosugars]

I'd say atheism is a belief. A belief there's no god. What else is it since we don't have a proof either way?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I have had the piss taken over my religion Kirk,I just shrug it off,each to their own,live and let live and all that,I do believe in God (a higher being) and I definitely think there is something beyond.

Hi love.

Do you know, Kaz, that I have such conviction in my faith and such confidence that God exists that I cannot help smiling whenever atheists jeer and mock.

I KNOW what I KNOW.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'd say atheism is a belief. A belief there's no god. What else is it since we don't have a proof either way?

incorrect

its not a 50:50 thing with gods, dragons, superheros etc

the chances of everything man has learned about physics being wrong and gods being real is minute a tiny fraction of a percent

not believing in stuff with no evidence is not a badge or a thing

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I have had the piss taken over my religion Kirk,I just shrug it off,each to their own,live and let live and all that,I do believe in God (a higher being) and I definitely think there is something beyond.

with respect Kaz that is not so much a belief based on anything other than a hope - a hope that we are more important than we are, that out lives have more meaning than a blade of grass (they are not)

in 2018 it would be impossible to claim to believe in an invisible god without derision as it would to claim at say a dinner party you thought goblins were real

too much debunking, too much science, too much evidence etc has flowed under the bridge for that stance to hold any water anymore

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

incorrect

its not a 50:50 thing with gods, dragons, superheros etc

the chances of everything man has learned about physics being wrong and gods being real is minute a tiny fraction of a percent

not believing in stuff with no evidence is not a badge or a thing

incorrect

science remains valid, but it hasn't answered the god question either way, until that happens atheism is a belief not a fact

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'd say atheism is a belief. A belief there's no god. What else is it since we don't have a proof either way?

I disagree, you don't need proof that something doesn't exist

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I disagree, you don't need proof that something doesn't exist

It works both ways really
You don't necessarily need concrete proof that it does exist either , the whole point in having faith is you just believe .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No they've never asked my kids.

In regards to Catholic schools, I think in the UK that religious ethos schools are privately run where as here they're state run so every tax payer is funding them no matter what religion they are which is unfair imo state and schools should be separate

No there are definitely Catholic state run schools (both primary schools and high-schools) in the UK. Not sure about other faiths. They're outnumbered by non-denominational schools by quite a big margin but they do exist, I think the only real difference between state and private religious ethos schools is that if they're state run, they can't refuse to take people of other religions / no religion and have to cater for them (by allowing them not to go to religious assemblies / church etc. and making alternative arrangements).

Most state schools are technically not non-religious... They're classed as non-denominational Christian (but exclusively have services with Church of England / Church of Scotland leanings). Even these days. There's not a huge focus on it but they do church services and the nativity etc. at Christmas is taught more as "history" than as "myths and legends"... Certainly for the first few years of Primary school at least, my daughter was confused as to why we didn't consider the Baby Jesus stories to be real or literal, when school was teaching them that way (I.e. Jesus WAS the son of God, an angel DID visit them, etc)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

It works both ways really
You don't necessarily need concrete proof that it does exist either , the whole point in having faith is you just believe .

Yes but "faith" is that fallback argument; believing in something with no evidence is neither logical nor rational... "faith" is in my opinion just a more justifiable way of saying "wishful thinking". People have faith because it comforts and guides them. The harsh reality is, if something has been believed in passionately through faith for thousands of years and yet there is still zero real evidence of its existence, there's a very high probability that it simply does not exist.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I disagree, you don't need proof that something doesn't exist

You do otherwise you can't rule it out and the possibility of it existing remains

[Twosugars]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

[Withano]

A quesion thats always bugged me

Why is God considered good, and the devil bad, when God is the one that chooses who makes heaven and who gets sent to hell for an eternity of damnation.

One chooses who gets punished, and the other does the punishing... kinda sounds like they’re on the same team but with different jobs...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

Yes but you could say that about anything space unicorns for instance.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

A quesion thats always bugged me

Why is God considered good, and the devil bad, when God is the one that chooses who makes heaven and who gets sent to hell for an eternity of damnation.

One chooses who gets punished, and the other does the punishing... kinda sounds like they’re on the same team but with different jobs...

Good point.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but "faith" is that fallback argument; believing in something with no evidence is neither logical nor rational... "faith" is in my opinion just a more justifiable way of saying "wishful thinking". People have faith because it comforts and guides them. The harsh reality is, if something has been believed in passionately through faith for thousands of years and yet there is still zero real evidence of its existence, there's a very high probability that it simply does not exist.

But that's what faith is whether you like it or not , and that's not entirely true as some people actually feel a sense of peace and contentment when following religion . they're happy and they believe what they believe .

Some people even experience miracles and spiritual encounters , of course some people might be sceptical but how can you know for sure they didn't experience angels and god protecting them? .

And yes it does comfort and guide people .

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes but you could say that about anything space unicorns for instance.

But we are not talking about them.

What do you want me to say? I said before religious doctrines are unlikely to be true, but you can't prove it especially if interpreting them freely. I'm not going to condemn them and I'm happy for them to exist as long as they don't force themselves on anybody.
But I'm not going to ridicule them or selectively cite only negatives about them.
And I'm not going to trivialise the issue.
I hope that's ok with you and other strident critics of religion in this thread. I'm not budging.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

But we are not talking about them.

What do you want me to say? I said before religious doctrines are unlikely to be true, but you can't prove it especially if interpreting them freely. I'm not going to condemn them and I'm happy for them to exist as long as they don't force themselves on anybody.
But I'm not going to ridicule them or selectively cite only negatives about them.
And I'm not going to trivialise the issue.
I hope that's ok with you and other strident critics of religion in this thread. I'm not budging.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion? Just having a debate in Serious Debates. . .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

It's not proof of absence but it does suggest a very high likelihood of absence. There are very few things that can be "proven" in any absolute sense so there's no point going down that road; we can only deal in probability and likelihood. The likelihood that Christianity or any other mainstream religion represents anything resembling "truth", when there is zero evidence of it despite multiple-billions of people presumably having a direct interest in providing that evidence, means that the likelihood of it being accurate is not just small but miniscule.

I am well aware that people often have a strong emotional attachment to religion and would be lost, probably even depressed, without it. I think it serves a definite purpose. I would never go up to little old Betty who has just lost her husband and say "lol no Betty, it's statistically HIGHLY improbable that you'll meet again in heaven"... But, on a debates forum, in a religious debate, I think it should be safe enough to stick with what's actually rational. Religion is not rational. Faith is not rational. There are NO rational arguments for blind faith, and no reason to assume that anyone's "personal spiritual experience of God" is anything more than placebo. It's as simple as that.

And yes I know that "that's the point of faith" etc etc when it comes to day to day scenarios like poor Betty above, but it doesn't have much place in a logical, reasoned discussion.

[user104658]

That's not an Atheism argument by the way. The likelihood of there being SOME form of intelligent design / higher power is a complete unknown and therefore 50/50. It just isn't Christian God or any other human god, or anything even vaguely similar to any concept of God that humanity has suggested.

The idea that we have it figured out is ludicrously arrogant.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion? Just having a debate in Serious Debates. . .

Sorry. I lost my cool bc of the pride thread. Shouldn't have taken it out on you.