[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not splitting hairs though they're all white and they're not discriminated against for being white, someone discriminating against an Irish person is xenophobic not racist

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I am not ignoring anything, you are the one ignoring that not all white people have it easy, firstly it depends whether you live in your own country or not, many whites will experience racism as immigrants, or expats, all travellers suffer racism regularly, are you denying that? so this airy fairy idea that whites do not suffer racism is coming from you a person who has never lived or travelled very much outside of the UK, would you say some white Eastern Europeans are not subject to racism in the UK????

In the west, white people do not face the same racism as other races do, don't twist my words to make up for gaping holes in your own argument.

Again, as I've said before, you are muddying and confusing the issue. Travelers and Eastern Europeans do not face discrimination on the fact they are white, the discrimination they face is xenophobia and in the case of Travelers, their lifestyle.

Nobody is like 'Grr! look of those polish people! White bastards!' The fact they are white are not why they suffer discrimination, it's their country of origin that bigots take exception to.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.

Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward

it still boils down to the same think, people experience discrimination and predjudice which is what racism is, white people living abroad experience it, Dezzy can deny it all he likes from the comfort of his front room but it is happening.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

it still boils down to the same think, people experience discrimination and predjudice which is what racism is, white people living abroad experience it, Dezzy can deny it all he likes from the comfort of his front room but it is happening.

It actually feels like you are deliberately missing the point he's making though.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

[Vicky.]

Yup, travellers face discrimination for being travellers, not because they are white, so I don't think its racism. Travellers are assumed to be dickheads who fight all the time and steal and stuff. From my experience, that seems pretty accurate however I really doubt that they are all liken that and I do think I have just been unlucky with the ones I have met, and would not assume that every traveler is like that at all. But yeah, its xenophobia really. Its not racism, unless people are discriminating against them for the colour of their skin

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward

current edition: UK edition The Guardian - Back to home
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Roma, Gypsies and Travellers
It’s time to end ‘the last acceptable racism’ – against Gypsies and Travellers
Mike Doherty
As editor of the Travellers’ Times, I know that too many people from these misunderstood communities face prejudice, abuse and even physical attack

Fri 15 Jan 2016 13.41 GMT Last modified on Fri 15 Sep 2017 12.24 BST
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Traveller family at Dale Farm
‘The vast majority of Gypsies and Travellers live on legal sites or in houses, and pay taxes and rent just like everybody else.’ Photograph: Oli Scarff/Getty Images
Gypsies and Travellers are in the news again, and for all the wrong reasons. After last year’s revelations about a secret Facebook group where serving and retired Metropolitan police officers swapped insults about “****ing pikeys”, allegations have surfaced of holiday camp operators having “Traveller blacklists”. So now seems like a good time to take stock of what is often called “the last acceptable racism”.


Met police officers 'used racist Facebook group'
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The facts and figures are stark. Nine out of 10 Gypsy and Traveller children have suffered racial abuse, and two-thirds of children from Traveller groups have also been bullied or physically attacked.

A 2004 report from Stonewall listed some common prejudices: “It was argued that these groups did not conform to the system by paying taxes, they had a reputation for unreliable business practices and they did not respect private property. They were also criticised… for not belonging to a community and allegedly having a negative impact on the environment: for example, they are unsightly, dirty or unhygienic.”

The racism can have horrific consequences. Johnny Delaney, a 15-year-old Traveller, was kicked to death by a gang of racists shouting “****ing gyppos!” Sentencing his attackers, the judge refused to recognise the killing as racially aggravated, despite the recommendations of the police.

One of the few defences against the drip-drip-drip of discrimination is humour
But behind such tragedies lie many banal and absurd acts of racism, the stuff that grinds you down on a daily basis. The incidents that prompted a grown Traveller man to tell me: “I have had enough. I have suffered from it all my life, I don’t want my children and grandchildren to suffer from it as well.” This man had just fallen foul of the local postman’s decision to stop delivering to those he deemed to be Irish Travellers on a mixed mobile home site.

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I’ve heard too many stories like that as editor of the Travellers’ Times. Like the Oxbridge-educated Romany Gypsy man who was invited on to a radio show about unauthorised camps, only for the presenter to ask him: “But you don’t pay your taxes, you don’t educate your children, you won’t integrate, so how can you expect your rights?”

If you must know, the vast majority of Gypsies and Travellers live on legal sites – mostly private, not public – or in houses, and pay taxes and rent just like everybody else. As the rest are effectively homeless, you could hardly expect them to pay for local services. They aren’t offered any – not even the most basic waste disposal.

At the Travellers’ Times office we have become used to people who have lost their dog phoning to ask if we can “put something out in case any of the community have… er… found it”.


Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
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Then there’s the Irish Traveller mother who is followed by a store detective whenever she goes shopping with her daughters at the local supermarket. “It’s like he’s decided that I am playing with him,” she told me. “They look at me when they can’t find anything stolen in my bags – like, ‘You got away with it this time.’ It’s humiliating. I have never stolen anything in my life.”

One of the few defences against this drip-drip-drip of discrimination is humour. Another Gypsy woman, asked, “What do Gypsies do at Christmas?”, told her workmate: “We stuff and eat all the babies we stole in the summer. Those of us that are not doubling up as elves, that is.”

Remarkably, this treatment hasn’t left the Traveller and Gypsy community bitter or apathetic. The stories you won’t read in the mainstream press include the 90-strong Gypsy Traveller Catholic men’s group that collects thousands of pounds to help the homeless. The sponsored pilgrimages for charity. The Gypsy man who took on the Daily Mail in a libel claim and won an apology and settlement. The successful discrimination cases against pub chains. The young female Gypsy boxer who’s a contender for the next Olympics. The Gypsy copper who started an association for Traveller police officers. There’s good and bad in everyone. Isn’t it about time the rest of society recognised it?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It actually feels like you are deliberately missing the point he's making though.

No I am not, as I have said before people can label it what they like, but it boils down to the same thing, calling it by another name does not lessen its impact

[Vicky.]

The guardian is full of **** though. used to be my news source of choice, now I see it as a bit of a joke

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

No, because you're misrepresenting what I said. I've said it multiple times that white people do not face the same racism as other races in the west. Not that they don't face racism at all. I've said it enough times that misreading it is not an excuse which means you are completely and purposely misrepresenting what I've said and running with it because you can't argue with what I've said otherwise.

Originally Posted by parmnion

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

It does sound like that...If you completely disregard what I said and put words in my mouth. It's always better to read and comment on what people actually say, not what you want them to say.

I never mentioned anything about only western europeans being capable of being racist, that's your own imagination overwriting what I've said. Eastern Europe is capable of racism and bigotry just like anywhere else.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The guardian is full of **** though. used to be my news source of choice, now I see it as a bit of a joke

oh right I see, I hope we can be as open and honest about other communities when talking about them on the forum.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I am not, as I have said before people can label it what they like, but it boils down to the same thing, calling it by another name does not lessen its impact

I didn't say it lessened it's impact but it's still not racism, Travelers are not discriminated against because of the colour of their skin neither are Irish people and neither are Eastern Europeans (not saying that they or any other white people couldn't be, they could of course if they lived in a mainly black country and were discriminated against for being white or whatever) but being discriminated against for being a traveler is not racism, being discriminated against for being Irish is not racism etc

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

No, because you're misrepresenting what I said. I've said it multiple times that white people do not face the same racism as other races in the west. Not that they don't face racism at all. I've said it enough times that misreading it is not an excuse which means you are completely and purposely misrepresenting what I've said and running with it because you can't argue with what I've said otherwise.



It does sound like that...If you completely disregard what I said and put words in my mouth. It's always better to read and comment on what people actually say, not what you want them to say.

I never mentioned anything about only western europeans being capable of being racist, that's your own imagination overwriting what I've said. Eastern Europe is capable of racism and bigotry just like anywhere else.

You do not know what people face, you can only go by your own experience so its a very sweeping statement to make

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

oh right I see, I hope we can be as open and honest about other communities when talking about them on the forum.

Not sure what this comment means actually? Or what it has to do with my dislike of the guardian

[Tom4784]

You can quote all the opinion pieces in the world you like, it doesn't change the fact that xenophobia and racism are two different things and no amount of twisty turny 'logic' can override facts.

Eastern European is not a race, travellers are not a race, that doesn't minimise the xenophobia and the bigotry they face but it doesn't make it racism either. People don't hate eastern europeans or travellers because they are white, that's simply not true and nothing is going to change that.

You can't argue against facts, this isn't a 'let's agree to disagree situation. There is a right and a wrong and oversimplifying the differences between xenophobia and racism to justify an incorrect point does not make it any less factually incorrect.

Racism is not the same as xenophobia, as I've said multiple times (and have been ignored each time) white people can face discrimination based on other factors but in the west, we do not suffer racism on anywhere near the same level as other races and it's just disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You do not know what people face, you can only go by your own experience so its a very sweeping statement to make

So you have nothing to actually add aside from platitudes aimed at denying me my opinion, k.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

...they could be. Like, it is possible, and has happened.. The examples youve used dont help... for reasons that were explained to you countless of times.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

He said people dont hate eastern europeans for thier skin colour...i believe a good few africans or asians will.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

He said people dont hate eastern europeans for thier skin colour...i believe a good few africans or asians will.

In the context that Cherie was talking about, she said "Are you saying the Eastern Eurpoeans don't experience racism in UK?" in that context that she brought up (not Dezzy) she meant for being eastern European not for being white this is literally what we've been discussing the last couple of pages, otherwise the fact that they're Eastern European would have been totally irrelevant

[Maru]

Xenophobia and racism can mix. Good ol old-fashioned tribalism, but I know for a fact that there are some smaller niches in the US where being white is unwelcome. I have gotten that treatment on occasion leaving my old neighborhood (also minority) and going deeper into certain communities where there is more gangs for example... most are in some specific ethnic group, they absolutely do not like whites.

My husband is regularly targetted in his line of work for his skin color. He's received death threats and had attempted assaults on that basis alone.

Personally, I think most racism is not visible with average folk, at least until you get into certain topics of conversation.. there are non-white friends who will voice something, openly admitting they're racist, but you would never know from other conversations. Like Hispanics, they tend to be less concerned as whites are about appearances about voicing those feelings from my experiences here, maybe bc were always assumed to be the most racist group... but yeah I would say this rhetoric around whiteness == evilness in origin, has had a major impact on my husbands safety for example... he has to take more precautions, sadly, but he does have good rapport generally with folk... but still, doesnt mean he doesn't have to worry about the one that has in their head, hes part of the evil aggressive white man fold... and whether or not he has a shiv, bc they find those all the time... so yeah, I worry about that when he tells me he has received threats... had a guy yank the phone off the wall the other day threatening to bash him with it and strangle...

The administration is much more likely to crack down on him than on that behavior.., that policy is pretty racist really, bc it gives those minorities more room to threaten others, including other inmates.. but white inmates, there is less fear they will retaliate and sue for discriminaton... so yeah, racism does effect white folk in very significant ways... but we'll never hear about this shift bc of the race-baiting in the media...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

In the west, white people do not face the same racism as other races do, don't twist my words to make up for gaping holes in your own argument.

Again, as I've said before, you are muddying and confusing the issue. Travelers and Eastern Europeans do not face discrimination on the fact they are white, the discrimination they face is xenophobia and in the case of Travelers, their lifestyle.

Nobody is like 'Grr! look of those polish people! White bastards!' The fact they are white are not why they suffer discrimination, it's their country of origin that bigots take exception to.

Why are you so focused on the West. Racism is racism whoever it is against and wherever it occurs and whites could face more racism worldwide if outnumbered by non-whites worldwide. Just because it isn’t under your nose doesn’t make it any less relevant.