[user104658]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists

To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practising of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practicing of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

I think TS may have borrowed from my comment where I mention the concept of self-identification (in general)... that's different than Transgenderism... it's one thing to say an apple is an apple... or that an apple looks like an apple, but feels like an orange... but completely different if an apple can change to different fruit at will (Fire orange, banana bonanza, peachy keen, fine lime)... to me, that completely trivializes Transgenderism (relatively speaking)... but the self-identification thing and Transgenderism are two different concepts...

A trans-qualifier, at least as accepted by psych/med, is for those who suffering from gender dysphoria... but self-identification goes beyond that and creates an even bigger umbrella... it means we can change at will, which theoretically can mean, as often as one would prefer... it makes defining things more ambiguous, and I think if we're heading that direction, then other things can start to lose their original definition... because after all, the only qualifier is that we self-identity or "feel" a certain way that day... is a bit different than saying, well this person is transgender... because they have gender dysphoria... as I wrote above, I really disagree with this concept because it trivializes the footwork that legitimate trans-folk have to go through to find peace with their own identity... if it were as simple as a switch, hey I'm not feeling a certain way today I'll change my mind, then the discussion would be null...

I don't think the concept of self-identification is the problem. I just don't think it should be law is all... a trans-person who is struggling with a real disconnect, that's much easier to accommodate... and easier for society to create social barriers that make sense for all folk...

So anyway, it was just an ironic comment... we're discussing how feminism is concretely in support of certain movements, has these political positions, is within these belief systems, this that and the other thing... is ironic considering that a great deal of folk who have that belief also support self-identification and a gender-spectrum... which sort of undermines the premise of defining things concretely to certain criterium...

Hope that makes sense, Ammi... if not, no worries ... it's just me discussing a side-topic and other mind-dumping (as usual) ...