[bots]

A US-based organisation that campaigns for LGBT sportspeople has cut its links with tennis legend Martina Navratilova over comments she made about male-to-female transgender athletes.

The 18-times Grand Slam winner wrote it was "cheating" to allow transgender women to compete in women's sport as they had unfair physical advantages.

Athlete Ally said the remarks were transphobic and perpetuated myths.

It said it had sacked the star from its advisory board and as an ambassador.

In an article for the British newspaper The Sunday Times, Navratilova wrote: "A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires."

She added: "It's insane and it's cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair."

Trans sportswomen quickly hit back. Rachel McKinnon, who last year became the first transgender woman to win a world track cycling title, called the comments "disturbing, upsetting and deeply transphobic".

In its statement, Athlete Ally said Navratilova's comments were "transphobic, based on a false understanding of science and data, and perpetuate dangerous myths that lead to the ongoing targeting of trans people through discriminatory laws, hateful stereotypes and disproportionate violence".

It added: "This is not the first time we have approached Martina on this topic. In late December, she made deeply troubling comments across her social media channels about the ability for trans athletes to compete in sport. We reached out directly offering to be a resource as she sought further education, and we never heard back."

Athlete Ally said Navratilova joined as an ambassador and was honoured with an Action Award at the group's first annual gala in 2014.

She has since taken part in advocacy campaigns including signing an open letter calling on the International Basketball Federation (Fiba) to overturn its ban on the hijab and an open letter speaking out against an anti-trans bill in Texas in 2017.

The group said the former champion had not yet responded to its decision to drop her.

Navratilova has been a longstanding campaigner for gay rights and suffered abuse when she came out as gay in the 1980s.

Under guidelines introduced in 2016, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) allows athletes transitioning from female to male to participate without restrictions.

Male to female competitors, however, are required to have kept their levels of testosterone - a hormone that increases muscle mass - below a certain level for at least 12 months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47301007

-------

I'm in agreement with Navratilova

[user104658]

The issue itself is complicated and there are clear physical advantages, however the way she's chosen to phrase it is deeply inappropriate for someone to be representing an LGBT organisation.

She's not just saying that Male to Female transsexuals have an advantage in terms of body composition that makes it unfortunate that they can't realistically compete in various sports in a fair way... She's suggesting that men will "go trans" for a while in order to "cheat" their way to the top of a sport, and then switch back to being a man.

Theoretically possible? Maybe, but it's never happened so it's just a fear-based and pretty offensive "what if" to suggest that trans people are likely to be "faking it" for personal gain, and completely trivialises the process.

Sort of like the idea that men will "pretend to be women" to access hospital beds and women's bathrooms.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The issue itself is complicated and there are clear physical advantages, however the way she's chosen to phrase it is deeply inappropriate for someone to be representing an LGBT organisation.

She's not just saying that Male to Female transsexuals have an advantage in terms of body composition that makes it unfortunate that they can't realistically compete in various sports in a fair way... She's suggesting that men will "go trans" for a while in order to "cheat" their way to the top of a sport, and then switch back to being a man.

Theoretically possible? Maybe, but it's never happened so it's just a fear-based and pretty offensive "what if" to suggest that trans people are likely to be "faking it" for personal gain, and completely trivialises the process.

Sort of like the idea that men will "pretend to be women" to access hospital beds and women's bathrooms.

I think the Russians used to do it pretty regularly with hormones to win Olympic medals. Not in a transgender context of course but the medical route was evident none the less. As Navratilova comes from eastern europe, she will likely be aware of it more than most

[Cherie]

Just because it has never happened 'yet' doesn't mean we can't speak about the possibility of it happening and put measures in place to prevent it, no point crying about it afterwards

[Oliver_W]

While she's not wrong that transwomen have advantages over women, being biologically male, there's no need to imply that men have transitioned specifically so they can have that advantage. If she'd have left it as "I feel it's unfair as their male bodies are stronger than women's"

[Northern Monkey]

I mean it’s totally ridiculous.How can the IOC even consider letting biological males compete against women?
I believe in tennis men play more sets than women due to the physical advantage.

They going to start letting them into power lifting contests next?
What about boxing,Will they be letting big burly trans women beat the crap out of women in the ring?

Surely no one thinks this is a good idea.It’s just common sense.

Even with restricted testosterone men generally have more muscle mass and bigger bone structure.
What crazy world are we living in?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I mean it’s totally ridiculous.How can the IOC even consider letting biological males compete against women?
I believe in tennis men play more sets than women due to the physical advantage.

They going to start letting them into power lifting contests next?
What about boxing,Will they be letting big burly trans women beat the crap out of women in the ring?

Surely no one thinks this is a good idea.It’s just common sense.

Even with restricted testosterone men generally have more muscle mass and bigger bone structure.
What crazy world are we living in?

Well...

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

While she's not wrong that transwomen have advantages over women, being biologically male, there's no need to imply that men have trooned out specifically so they can have that advantage. If she'd have left it as "I feel it's unfair as their male bodies are stronger than women's"

Exactly my thinking, Oliver. It may well present an unfair advantage and the problem isn't that she pointed that out, it was the needless way she went about it. It's a conversation that needs to be had, but sensitively and with empathy, not "Hey you big burly men are just putting on dresses to CHEAT!"

[bots]

She isn't factually wrong, so should she now have to treat the issue with kid gloves in case she offends some sensitive soul? Thats what seems to be being suggested

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

She isn't factually wrong, so should she now have to treat the issue with kid gloves in case she offends some sensitive soul? Thats what seems to be being suggested

Handling a sensitive issue respectfully is "treating it with kid gloves"? How very Trump of you.

It should be the default.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Handling a sensitive issue respectfully is "treating it with kid gloves"? How very Trump of you.

It should be the default.

Surely it should work both ways though, womens concerns seem to be labelled transphobic when they try to raise concerns about the issue? And tbh TS you're pretty guilty of doing that yourself, telling people that they're just "uncomfortable" (transphobic) rather than just actually worried about some of the issues (like this sport one). Women have always been the most accepting of LGBT issues in the past, transexuals have been around for a very longtime, it's not new and most women (myself included) have absolutely no problem with them, the problem is only arising now because it's starting to encroach on womens rights, which we've fought very hard for over the years. Womens sport may becomes unattainable for biological women in the future, I'm sure you think that's hysteria on womens parts but with all due respect TS this issue is never going to effect mens sports so it's nice and easy for you to sit there and call us transphobic or sorry "uncomfortable" when it will not effect men anyway.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I mean it’s totally ridiculous.How can the IOC even consider letting biological males compete against women?
I believe in tennis men play more sets than women due to the physical advantage.

They going to start letting them into power lifting contests next?
What about boxing,Will they be letting big burly trans women beat the crap out of women in the ring?

Surely no one thinks this is a good idea.It’s just common sense.

Even with restricted testosterone men generally have more muscle mass and bigger bone structure.
What crazy world are we living in?

What do you mean "start"...............



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...wins-comp.html

Weightlifting is obviously extremely unfair but MMA fighting (without telling any of the biologically female competitors) is just dangerous but hey we're just women right?



https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comment..._left_tamikka/

[user104658]

I certainly don't think the concerns regarding sport are transphobic, how could I possibly? I agree with them, I sadly don't think it works at all to have transwomen in female branches of sport, and I know I'm not a transphobe.

My issue is, always, and only, the angry language used, and the baseless assumptions made. "People born male have a natural physical advantage even after transition" is a valid and respectful criticism. "Men will deliberately pose as women to cheat!" - until it actually happens - is needless fear mongering. Much like the concept of rapists dubbing themselves Susan to get into hospital wards. You can call it a valid fear - all fears are valid in a sense - but its also entirely irrational.

Regardless, even if you see it as a valid opinion, you have to concede that someone holding that opinion is not an appropriate LGBT ambassador?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I certainly don't think the concerns regarding sport are transphobic, how could I possibly? I agree with them, I sadly don't think it works at all to have transwomen in female branches of sport, and I know I'm not a transphobe.

My issue is, always, and only, the angry language used, and the baseless assumptions made. "People born male have a natural physical advantage even after transition" is a valid and respectful criticism. "Men will deliberately pose as women to cheat!" - until it actually happens - is needless fear mongering. Much like the concept of rapists dubbing themselves Susan to get into hospital wards. You can call it a valid fear - all fears are valid in a sense - but its also entirely irrational.

Regardless, even if you see it as a valid opinion, you have to concede that someone holding that opinion is not an appropriate LGBT ambassador?

Well regardless of whether it's done specifically to cheat or not it's totally unfair and could destroy womens sports. I also don't think it's an "out there" idea to think that it could be used to purposely cheat either, it's not like sport isn't already rife with cheaters (Lance Armstrong I'm looking at you) especially now all you have to do is say "I'm a woman" . I'm sure I read a story last year actually where 2 transwomen won College scholarships because of track achievements (in the womens category's obviously) Is that not good motivation to inspire cheating?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well regardless of whether it's done specifically to cheat or not it's totally unfair and could destroy womens sports. I also don't think it's an "out there" idea to think that it could be used to purposely cheat either, it's not like sport isn't already rife with cheaters (Lance Armstrong I'm looking at you) especially now all you have to do is say "I'm a woman" now. I'm sure I read a story last year actually where 2 transwomen won College scholarships because of track achievements (in the womens category's obviously) Is that not good motivation to inspire cheating?

Maybe, I don't think it's hugely realistic, and also it's an irrelevant followup comment if the first premise is accepted?

You can JUST argue "it's not appropriate because of the physical advantage" which is true. If that argument is accepted then the result is that transwomen shouldnt be in the sport. Whether or not it could be "used to cheat" is irrelevant... Because it can ONLY be accepted that it could be used to cheat if the first argument that there is an unfair advantage is already accepted.

So why bother throwing that in there? It comes from an emotive place of incredulity and point-scoring. It's not necessary and it's inflammatory, so why do it?

And again; the story is that she's been removed as an LGBT ambassador. Surely no one can be arguing that she should remain as one?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe, I don't think it's hugely realistic, and also it's an irrelevant followup comment if the first premise is accepted?

You can JUST argue "it's not appropriate because of the physical advantage" which is true. If that argument is accepted then the result is that transwomen shouldnt be in the sport. Whether or not it could be "used to cheat" is irrelevant... Because it can ONLY be accepted that it could be used to cheat if the first argument that there is an unfair advantage is already accepted.

So why bother throwing that in there? It comes from an emotive place of incredulity and point-scoring. It's not necessary and it's inflammatory, so why do it?

And again; the story is that she's been removed as an LGBT ambassador. Surely no one can be arguing that she should remain as one?

Back to me being transphobic then for raising my concerns, you're not going to Police how I speak.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What do you mean "start"...............



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...wins-comp.html

Weightlifting is obviously extremely unfair but UFC fighting (without telling any of the biologically female competitors) is just dangerous but hey we're just women right?



https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comment..._left_tamikka/

Oh Jeez

How could that person ever see that gold medal as a fair achievement and be proud of it.
I wonder how she did in the men’s division before the transition.
The boxing or MMA,That’s irresponsible and dangerous.

If i was a female athlete i’d refuse to complete.

Steroids are banned in most sports for good reason.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Back to me being transphobic then for raising my concerns, you're not going to Police how I speak.

I didn't call you transphobic, but this is clearly a trigger issue for you and I'm not going to get into an angry back and forth over it again.

[Livia]

I'm with Martina. Quite disgusting that they have "severed links" with her after she's raised the profile of gay women in sport.

A trans woman should not be allowed to compete with born women, it's unfair. And I really can't see how anyone could argue with that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Oh Jeez

How could that person ever see that gold medal as a fair achievement and be proud of it.
I wonder how she did in the men’s division before the transition.
The boxing or MMA,That’s irresponsible and dangerous.

If i was a female athlete i’d refuse to complete.

Steroids are banned in most sports for good reason.

Unfortunately they didn't get that choice as they weren't told..fair right?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn't call you transphobic, but this is clearly a trigger issue for you and I'm not going to get into an angry back and forth over it again.

You bet it's a trigger for me, as both a woman and a sports fan (particularly MMA fighting where it's down right irresponsible and dangerous but has already been done without asking biological womens consent in the matter) I'm terribly sorry if that makes me angry and emotive......well no I'm not, if women didn't get emotive about topics that effected them in the past, we probably still wouldn't be allowed vote.......

[Vicky.]

Men declaring themselves women after being crap/mid league in their own sports, then declaring themselves women, and oddly enough then being top...has already happened, a few times, so saying it has not ever happened is just silly. Some of these men even argue against the testosterone requirements, saying its unfair to say they should lower them...Rachel McKinnon, looking at you! Even with the lowered testosterone, the levels they are required to lower them to...its still like 3x above the highest level women would have...so obviously unfair. Even if they lowered it more, there is the advantage of a male body, hormones do not lower lung capacity and such. Anyone who has been through male puberty should not compete in womens sports at all. Martina actually said that she thinks its different for transsexuals who have had the ops, I understand why she said that...as it is a lot harder deciding on people with that sort of commitment to 'being a woman' and of course people have a lot of sympathy for actual transsexual people rather than todays 'I am a woman' people who change barely anything, or nothing at all. However IMO, even those who have had the ops..they have the advantages still so should not be in womens sports. There are many reasons people cannot compete in sports, unfortunately, I think this is one of them also.

Yes niamh, the males who came 1st, second and third in that American race...Andrea Yarwood who got a scholarship off the back of it (sports are a lot more important in USA) were..well clearly cheating, but I understand why as..its so important to American kids..I don't blame THEM as such, I blame the people who allowed it to happen when its clearly unfair.

I don't blame the many men using this to beat women in various sports either really...though some (the likes of Laurel Hubbard) are very obviously just taking the piss. Its those who set the guidelines, who know its unfair but don't seem to give a ****.

Basically, that was a long way of saying Martina is not transphobic for suggesting men will use this to cheat, as men have already used this to cheat, are currently using it to cheat. I stand with Martina..which won't shock anyone on here at all

Dumping a LGB icon for pointing out obvious issues/some that are currently going on, is ****ing ridiculous.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Men declaring themselves women after being crap/mid league in their own sports, then declaring themselves women, and oddly enough then being top...has already happened, a few times, so saying it has not ever happened is just silly. Some of these men even argue against the testosterone requirements, saying its unfair to say they should lower them...Rachel McKinnon, looking at you! Even with the lowered testosterone, the levels they are required to lower them to...its still like 3x above the highest level women would have...so obviously unfair. Even if they lowered it more, there is the advantage of a male body, hormones do not lower lung capacity and such. Anyone who has been through male puberty should not compete in womens sports at all. Martina actually said that she thinks its different for transsexuals who have had the ops, I understand why she said that...as it is a lot harder deciding on people with that sort of commitment to 'being a woman' and of course people have a lot of sympathy for actual transsexual people rather than todays 'I am a woman' people who change barely anything, or nothing at all. However IMO, even those who have had the ops..they have the advantages still so should not be in womens sports. There are many reasons people cannot compete in sports, unfortunately, I think this is one of them also.

Yes niamh, the males who came 1st, second and third in that American race...Andrea Yarwood who got a scholarship off the back of it (sports are a lot more important in USA) were..well clearly cheating, but I understand why as..its so important to American kids..I don't blame THEM as such, I blame the people who allowed it to happen when its clearly unfair.

I don't blame the many men using this to beat women in various sports either really...though some (the likes of Laurel Hubbard) are very obviously just taking the piss. Its those who set the guidelines, who know its unfair but don't seem to give a ****.

Basically, that was a long way of saying Martina is not transphobic for suggesting men will use this to cheat, as men have already used this to cheat, are currently using it to cheat. I stand with Martina..which won't shock anyone on here at all

Dumping a LGB icon for pointing out obvious issues/some that are currently going on, is ****ing ridiculous.

Strongly agree, which will not surprise you... but in particular I agree with the last two paragraphs.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Unfortunately they didn't get that choice as they weren't told..fair right?



You bet it's a trigger for me, as both a woman and a sports fan (particularly MMA fighting where it's down right irresponsible and dangerous but has already been done without asking biological womens consent in the matter) I'm terribly sorry if that makes me angry and emotive......well no I'm not, if women didn't get emotive about topics that effected them in the past, we probably still wouldn't be allowed vote.......

They weren't told that they'd be fighting Trans Women? That's disgraceful imo.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Men declaring themselves women after being crap/mid league in their own sports, then declaring themselves women, and oddly enough then being top...has already happened, a few times, so saying it has not ever happened is just silly. Some of these men even argue against the testosterone requirements, saying its unfair to say they should lower them...Rachel McKinnon, looking at you! Even with the lowered testosterone, the levels they are required to lower them to...its still like 3x above the highest level women would have...so obviously unfair. Even if they lowered it more, there is the advantage of a male body, hormones do not lower lung capacity and such. Anyone who has been through male puberty should not compete in womens sports at all. Martina actually said that she thinks its different for transsexuals who have had the ops, I understand why she said that...as it is a lot harder deciding on people with that sort of commitment to 'being a woman' and of course people have a lot of sympathy for actual transsexual people rather than todays 'I am a woman' people who change barely anything, or nothing at all. However IMO, even those who have had the ops..they have the advantages still so should not be in womens sports. There are many reasons people cannot compete in sports, unfortunately, I think this is one of them also.

Yes niamh, the males who came 1st, second and third in that American race...Andrea Yarwood who got a scholarship off the back of it (sports are a lot more important in USA) were..well clearly cheating, but I understand why as..its so important to American kids..I don't blame THEM as such, I blame the people who allowed it to happen when its clearly unfair.

I don't blame the many men using this to beat women in various sports either really...though some (the likes of Laurel Hubbard) are very obviously just taking the piss. Its those who set the guidelines, who know its unfair but don't seem to give a ****.

Basically, that was a long way of saying Martina is not transphobic for suggesting men will use this to cheat, as men have already used this to cheat, are currently using it to cheat. I stand with Martina..which won't shock anyone on here at all

Dumping a LGB icon for pointing out obvious issues/some that are currently going on, is ****ing ridiculous.

Thanks Vicky. Found the article on it if anyone is interested

Setting brand new records and all....aren't they great?

A Connecticut high school sophomore dominated in last week's track and field competition - but the transgender teen's big win has some people outraged and wondering if it's fair she was allowed to compete.

Terry Miller, who was born a male but identifies as a female, came in first place twice during the June 4 CIAC State Open track and field competition. During the 100-meter dash, Miller smoked her competition finishing the race in just 11.72 seconds. She also killed it in the 200-meter dash finishing in 24.17 seconds.

The Bulkeley High School teen, who competed on the boys' team during the winter indoor track season, set new state records last Monday in both races, the CT Post reports.

Fellow transgender sprinter, Andraya Yearwood, also dominated at the competition finishing in second place in the 100-meter dash.




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpionship.html

[Vicky.]

Sorry it was just first and second. Was going from memory there. Still first and second, stolen from girls in a girls race.

Those girls know they have no chance, its so sad given how important sports are to school kids in America..

Stuff like this annoys me..

Newton student Carly Swierbut agreed telling the outlet: 'If you're good enough to run, you're good enough to run. If somebody wants to win, they're going to work their tail off to win. It doesn't matter who you are, what you are, everybody should have the chance.

Its not about girls not being good enough. Its about boys having a natural biological advantage. Girls could train as hard as they physically could, and would still be beat by boys.

Like..https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...66a25267cd8fd8 . We all know how good Serena Williams is. But many males could beat her no problem.

[Crimson Dynamo]

She is only saying what most level headed people are thinking. Good on her