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Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

The cartoon is disgusting, but that’s the point, it’s showing Trump’s and the average right-winger’s contempt and lack of empathy for these people, so in that case, it’s a brilliant piece of art.

The average right winger? The average? I'm on the right, I don't support what's happening in those camps and no one I know supports them either. I'm married to an American who has no interest in living there while Trump is in the Whitehouse. And frankly Liam, lumping everyone on the right into a gaggle of Nazis is insulting.

bots · 02-07-2019, 11:06 AM

the whole point of cartoons is to exaggerate reality, and that's what's happened in this case. Trump may not step over an actual dead body, but he sure doesn't give a **** either.

It's a cartoon that lacks taste for sure, but I would choose people getting upset at a cartoon over another immigrant dying in an interment camp

Liam- · 02-07-2019, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

The average right winger? The average? I'm on the right, I don't support what's happening in those camps and no one I know supports them either. I'm married to an American who has no interest in living there while Trump is in the Whitehouse. And frankly Liam, lumping everyone on the right into a gaggle of Nazis is insulting.

I was on about American right wingers, but sure let’s make it about you, it’s good you don’t feel that way, but if you ask a collection of republicans and other right wingers, the average response would most certainly be severely flippant and lacking any form of sympathy.

I didn’t mention nazis, me thinks you’re trying to inflate my comment into something it blatantly wasn’t and I find that insulting.

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the whole point of cartoons is to exaggerate reality, and that's what's happened in this case. Trump may not step over an actual dead body, but he sure doesn't give a **** either.

It's a cartoon that lacks taste for sure, but I would choose people getting upset at a cartoon over another immigrant dying in an interment camp

Well, that migrant and his daughter didn't die in a camp. It was a tragic death... but no one forced him into the river with his child. He made the decision to get into the water knowing the risk. And now his wife is left a widow with a dead daughter. They interviewed his mother in his hometown, he left for economic reasons and made that choice knowing how difficult it is entering the USA illegally. I feel sympathy for him, but most of my sympathy is for the little girl who had no choice but to trust her father's judgement. And here's a cartoon of Trump, about to step over their dead bodies. Trump, as odious a creature as he is, had no hand in the death of that father and child.

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

I was on about American right wingers, but sure let’s make it about you, it’s good you don’t feel that way, but if you ask a collection of republicans and other right wingers, the average response would most certainly be severely flippant and lacking any form of sympathy.

I didn’t mention nazis, me thinks you’re trying to inflate my comment into something it blatantly wasn’t and I find that insulting.

You lost me after the first sentence. I enjoy debating with you Liam, and with lots of people with whom I disagree, but I don't feel I can when you're making statements like the emboldened statement and thinking you're debating.

Nicky91 · 02-07-2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

Well, that migrant and his daughter didn't die in a camp. It was a tragic death... but no one forced him into the river with his child. He made the decision to get into the water knowing the risk. And now his wife is left a widow with a dead daughter. They interviewed his mother in his hometown, he left for economic reasons and made that choice knowing how difficult it is entering the USA illegally. I feel sympathy for him, but most of my sympathy is for the little girl who had no choice but to trust her father's judgement. And here's a cartoon of Trump, about to step over their dead bodies. Trump, as odious a creature as he is, had no hand in the death of that father and child.

yes but the thoughts of having a better life in USA are quite too hard to resist, my sympathies are also for him but also for that little girl

getting back at the better life in usa statement

1. possible more chance at work, better salary

2. a chance for his daughter to have a good education at a proper school

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicky91

yes but the thoughts of having a better life in USA are quite too hard to resist, my sympathies are also for him but also for that little girl

getting back at the better life in usa statement

1. possible more chance at work, better salary

2. a chance for his daughter to have a good education at a proper school

I understand that, but it isn't a right for people to travel from one country to another illegally even if it is for a better life. All the developed countries would be completely overrun, there won't be enough doctors, schools, jobs, food even. Are they going to say, hey, let's let everyone in case someone else drowns.

Nicky91 · 02-07-2019, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

I understand that, but it isn't a right for people to travel from one country to another illegally even if it is for a better life. All the developed countries would be completely overrun, there won't be enough doctors, schools, jobs, food even. Are they going to say, hey, let's let everyone in case someone else drowns.

true, the countries where they are from should make it a must to solve their problems for their people have better lives in their own country, rather than risking their lives to go to other countries for that better life

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicky91

true, the countries where they are from should make it a must to solve their problems for their people have better lives in their own country, rather than risking their lives to go to other countries for that better life

I'd agree with that. Lots of South American countries are overrun by drugs gangs and/or a corrupt military and police. I wish I knew the answer.

Liam- · 02-07-2019, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

You lost me after the first sentence. I enjoy debating with you Liam, and with lots of people with whom I disagree, but I don't feel I can when you're making statements like the emboldened statement and thinking you're debating.

Well if you read my statement and it didn’t fit to you, then you should be aware that you’re not the average right winger that I was referring to so it shouldn’t have been a problem, I don’t think you’re one those monsters out there that sees these people as nothing but ‘illegal aliens’ (a term which makes my skin crawl just having to write it ugh) - I’ve always said it, if I mean something personally to someone, I won’t hide behind veiled generalisations, i’ll say it out right

I’ll stand by my point though, the average right wing Trumpist will have zero sympathy, empathy or care for these people and that’s what the picture was depicting, perfectly imo.

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

Well if you read my statement and it didn’t fit to you, then you should be aware that you’re not the average right winger that I was referring to so it shouldn’t have been a problem, I don’t think you’re one those monsters out there that sees these people as nothing but ‘illegal aliens’ (a term which makes my skin crawl just having to write it ugh) - I’ve always said it, if I mean something personally to someone, I won’t hide behind veiled generalisations, i’ll say it out right

I’ll stand by my point though, the average right wing Trumpist will have zero sympathy, empathy or care for these people and that’s what the picture was depicting, perfectly imo.

Well, I appreciate that you'll say it outright. I hate assumptions being made about how I will feel about something based on the knowledge that I lean to the right.

There are monsters everywhere. And there is a large concentration of them amongst Trump supporters. While I don't think illegal aliens (I work in international law, so I'm quite used to that term...) should be treated in a way that infringes their Human Rights, no country has to take everyone who tries to get in. As Nicky said, governments in South America need to get a ****ing grip before all their young people try to leave.

Liam- · 02-07-2019, 11:43 AM

The differences in those two ‘camps’ are staggering.

How can anybody think that those conditions are anywhere near being acceptable or right? Especially in the ‘superpower of the world’ or the ‘greatest’ country in the world, there is absolutely no need for these innocent children to be living in those horrendous conditions, the Trump administration, his republican lackies and anybody that defends this should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

arista · 02-07-2019, 11:49 AM

"anywhere near being acceptable or right?"

They are not acceptable
But they not Nazi Concentration Camps

Liam- · 02-07-2019, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arista

"anywhere near being acceptable or right?"

They are not acceptable
But they not Nazi Concentration Camps

No, they’re Trump concentration camps

Livia · 02-07-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

The differences in those two ‘camps’ are staggering... etc etc.

My work is concentrated in the Middle east, mostly Israel but I also work quite a bit in Jordan, mainly at the Za’atari refugee camp. There are over 80,000 people there. I'm not going to pretend that conditions are perfect, they can be volatile just like any city with 80,000+ citizens, but there is enough medical attention for everyone, there are schools, it's powered by solar energy and families are not generally split up, unless there is some unsavoury reason. People often think about the Middle East as being backward thinking, hostile, particularly to other religions but it's not been my experience.

Compare that with the conditions that refugees in the USA face and it makes me wonder which is the more backward thinking, hostile country? Even if the refugees are entering illegally, they still have to be treated like human beings and not cattle, and sadly, looking at the Trump support, I think we're in for another term of his madness.

Livia · 02-07-2019, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

No, they’re Trump concentration camps

I'm still not happy with that term. No one's being gassed. No one's being starved and forced to work until they die of exhaustion. The camp is despicable enough without using inflammatory language to describe it... in my opinion.

Liam- · 02-07-2019, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm still not happy with that term. No one's being gassed. No one's being starved and forced to work until they die of exhaustion. The camp is despicable enough without using inflammatory language to describe it... in my opinion.

Concentration camps aren’t just about gassing people or mass execution, they’re camps used to keep people as political prisoners in dire conditions, which is what’s happening here.

If it makes people listen and take notice, then I don’t really see the issue with the word use, but then, I haven’t got that sort of thing in my history so

Livia · 02-07-2019, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

Concentration camps aren’t just about gassing people or mass execution, they’re camps used to keep people as political prisoners in dire conditions, which is what’s happening here.

If it makes people listen and take notice, then I don’t really see the issue with the word use, but then, I haven’t got that sort of thing in my history so

I understand what a concentration camp is. Like I understand what genocide is. Using either of those words in the wrong context, to me, dilutes and minimises the occasions when those terrible words are used correctly. Here the term has been used for shock tactics. It's also misleading. I really don't think people need to exaggerate the dire conditions in there, they're shocking enough.

Tom4784 · 02-07-2019, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

how disgusting is that...

More disgusted by a cartoon satirizing the apathy towards these people's plights than their plights themselves? Not surprised.

Tom4784 · 02-07-2019, 01:01 PM

More reports are coming out at a regular pace now, people forced to drink toilet water for the amusement of the guards, babies and pregnant women forced to sleep on rocks outside, the people in charge basically saying 'boys will be boys' to congress people visiting as a response to the abuses inflicted on these people by the guards etc.

This chapter will be yet another dark stain upon the US for years to come. If you are not deeply opposed to the goings on happening in those concentration camps then you stand on the wrong side of history.