[arista]

[23:22
Parliament 'not a platform for the PM's games'
Corbyn quips: "I realise the desperation of the Tory party when all they can do is rearrange the mikes on the Titanic."
He adds parliament is "not a platform for the prime minister's games".
The Commons are getting heated as several MPs seek to intervene on Corbyn, but he refuses to take their interventions.
Corbyn ends his speech by telling MPs: "We are not walking into traps laid by this prime minister."]

[arista]

[arista]

[joeysteele]

I really think a general election would only still leave a hung Parliament.

At this time it likely wouldn't resolve the problems.

I think the DUP could lose at least one seat in Northern Ireland too.

[bots]

Boris has lost every single vote so far, that must be a record

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Boris has lost every single vote so far, that must be a record

Apparently it is. Lost 6 votes in 6 days.

[arista]

Yes around the speaker
on the Labour side this was a fight
Now the Speaker and the Conservatives
have marched into the House of Lords.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes around the speaker
on the Labour side this was a fight
Now the Speaker and the Conservatives
have marched into the House of Lords.

It’s all a joke to a lot of them isn’t it

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Boris has lost every single vote so far, that must be a record

Not the most illustrious of starts

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Alf

But elections don't work like that in this country.

If we all kept changing the rules of the outcome to suit us every time we lose, then we wouldn't lose.

Brits used to know how to lose gracefully, now we live in a country of people who are spoilt brats, that want it their way every single time, and if they do lose, they stamp their feet, throw their toys and spit their dummy out.

I cant disagree with this, we have changed so much .

[Kazanne]

Emily Thornberry getting in a right old pickle on GMTV,LOL Piers and Susanna running rings around her

[bots]

Originally Posted by Alf

But elections don't work like that in this country.

If we all kept changing the rules of the outcome to suit us every time we lose, then we wouldn't lose.

Brits used to know how to lose gracefully, now we live in a country of people who are spoilt brats, that want it their way every single time, and if they do lose, they stamp their feet, throw their toys and spit their dummy out.

Are you referring to Boris here? The HoC is a democracy, it's not for Boris to dictate anything if he doesn't have the backing of parliament. If he wanted to be more successful, he should have gone with the consensus view in parliament and not threaten and throw his weight around when he has no power

[joeysteele]

If all this now really forces power mad Johnson to actually seriously go for a good agreement now with the EU.
Which parliament has put in place that will be the only way he won't need to ask for a delay.
Then all the fuss will be worth it.

If he doesn't, then he does risk not just breaking the law but getting into really big bother personally.

He should reflect, he needed 434 MPs to support a general election.
He got only 293 votes.
Even with his own MPs, inc the ones he kicked out, yes HE kicked out, no one else.
Plus the DUP.
He should have sailed past the 310 mark at least.

So no one wanted an election except the hard-line supporters he has and those just about staying with him for now.

293 is nowhere near a normal parliamentary majority, never mind the 434 needed.

I wonder, since HE claims to want to hear from voters..
He doesn't however as he knew fine well after his disregard for democracy and dictatorial stance,no way could he get an election, under his own Party's fixed term Parliament act.
I wonder though, what result he'd have got had he offered an election or confirmatory referendum on ' no deal' or remain.

As for Labour's policy, which however needs to be debated and endorsed at the Party conference.

If Labour had a new agreement with the EU.
Labour would still put that new deal for confirmatory support from voters, alongside remain choice.
In that scenario, Labour would explain the deal but be happy with either outcome.

It is only in a no deal or remain referendum, that then Labour would support remain.

Perfectly sensible and easy to understand to me anyway.

After all the mess of this and the last PMs own making.
Labours plan is the voters must approve a deal,no deal or remain.
A deal still desirably approved by voters no matter who negotiates the deal.

All seems the better and more democratic way to go in my view anyway.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Alf

What if you took no notice of the lies? and was gonna vote leave no matter what was said?

Just because you accept everything the television tells you, doesn't mean everyone else does.

So what you're admitting to here, is voting for a campaign that you knew were lying and acting illegally, and you rewarded them without any knowledge of the implications, and this is supposed to impress us as evidence of your independent thinking, when in reality it just highlights how little people knew about what they were voting for.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

So what you're admitting to here, is voting for a campaign that you knew were lying and acting illegally, and you rewarded them without any knowledge of the implications, and this is supposed to impress us as evidence of your independent thinking, when in reality it just highlights how little people knew about what they were voting for.

Full credit to you.
I was going to make the same point so well said.

Saved me a lot of typing as you said all more concisely than I would have.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Alf

But elections don't work like that in this country.

If we all kept changing the rules of the outcome to suit us every time we lose, then we wouldn't lose.

Brits used to know how to lose gracefully, now we live in a country of people who are spoilt brats, that want it their way every single time, and if they do lose, they stamp their feet, throw their toys and spit their dummy out.

I know elections don't work like that, but I was using your example to prove how your premise was incorrect.

We did lose gracefully; the government had 3 years to sort a deal out, and they've been unable to for one good reason (I have no idea why this needs to be repeated so often), there is no deal out there that is equal or better than the one we have already, and as soon as the details of any deal are known, it spectacularly comes apart at the seams. That's why no-deal has now become their default wish, so they don't ave to explain what it means, and they can dump the blame back on the people if/when it goes tits up.

I've seen you mention sovereignty as a reason for leaving, but now that parliament is showing us they do actually have these powers already, then you're complaining that they're the wrong powers. You can't have it both ways; either we have a government that can't say boo without the EU overlords giving us permission, or we've always had this ability, but you believed we didn't because that's what the lies have told you.

And far from losing gracefully, we have half the country determined to inflict pain on the other half the country because "they won", it's craziness my friend, that doesn't reflect well on the anti-intellectual, anti-evidence campaign that appealed the darkest and most base instincts of a majority of the leave vote.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

So what you're admitting to here, is voting for a campaign that you knew were lying and acting illegally, and you rewarded them without any knowledge of the implications, and this is supposed to impress us as evidence of your independent thinking, when in reality it just highlights how little people knew about what they were voting for.

No, I didn't vote for any campaign. I voted to leave the EU because I wanted to. The implications was, we come out of the EU and go it alone.

And nice to see you end by showing what a snob you are, by looking down on people and thinking that you know better and you know for a fact that they didn't know what they voted for, because they're to stupid too, aren't they?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Alf

No, I didn't vote for any campaign. I voted to leave the EU because I wanted to. The implications was, we come out of the EU and go it alone.

And nice to see you end by showing what a snob you are, by looking down on people and thinking that you know better and you know for a fact that they didn't know what they voted for, because they're to stupid too, aren't they?

I must admit I was the same, I voted simply because I wanted out of the eu cause in time I believe we will be better off and happier..

The snobbery I have seen from the eu leaders towards the uk and its citizens as well, has just further cemented my convictions.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I must admit I was the same, I voted simply because I wanted out of the eu cause in time I believe we will be better off and happier..

The snobbery I have seen from the eu leaders towards the uk and its citizens as well, has just further cemented my convictions.

Snobbery in what way? What do you expect them to do? Give you all the same benefits from being in the Eu without actually having to be in the Eu or put anything in to it?

[bots]

One wouldn't build a bridge across the channel and then stop when the estimated completion date had past saying, no problem, we will just stop there, people can swim the rest of the way from now on. The same is true of the brexit agreement. Things do take longer than expected to complete all the time, particularly when something is complex. There is absolutely no reason to leave without a deal, when we will still have to have some form of deal at a later date anyway. We cannot exclude trade with europe, it would be the height of stupidity

[Alf]

What people voted for has got absolutely nothing to do with anybody else, they're free to vote how they wish.

It's not for you to tell other people that they didn't know what they voted for, it's none of your business how or what they voted for.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Alf

No, I didn't vote for any campaign. I voted to leave the EU because I wanted to. The implications was, we come out of the EU and go it alone.

And nice to see you end by showing what a snob you are, by looking down on people and thinking that you know better and you know for a fact that they didn't know what they voted for, because they're to stupid too, aren't they?

Nail. On. Head. You left because you wanted to. You can't explain why, or maybe you can, you just know how the truth will be viewed?

It's not snobbery, it's evidence. Let's take this forum as a snapshot; I see the same lines trotted out day after day, and when the actual evidence is provided, then the other person goes quiet for a day, then comes back the following day with the same claims.

It's cult-like behaviour where people won't even admit they were conned and seduced by the lies, because that's viewed as a sign of weakness, when in reality, it takes intelligence and reasoning to even be open to changing your mind.

You're angry with the wrong people, Alf, the fact your side can't make a deal as good/better than we have is the only reason we haven't left yet, and that's what they promised. Yet you want to blame everyone apart from these liars and cheats. It's not snobbery to question whether people know what they were voting for when even you admit they were lying, and voted regardless, so how can you say that anyone voted leave because they knew what it entailed, when the campaign wasn't honest with them? I don't blame the voters, I blame the conmen and multimillionaires desperate to avoid EU tax regulations that fed into peoples insecurities.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Alf

What people voted for has got absolutely nothing to do with anybody else, they're free to vote how they wish.

It's not for you to tell other people that they didn't know what they voted for, it's none of your business how or what they voted for.

Except it does. Leave win the referendum, so let's say that even 5% of them voted because they were promised night after night on these news shows that brexit would make them better off because we'd hold all the cards in future deals, or that germany would come begging.

Just like anyone voting tory over the last decade have heaped austerity on the most at risk and vulnerable, so it absolutely affects people, what/why others voted the way they did.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Snobbery in what way? What do you expect them to do? Give you all the same benefits from being in the Eu without actually having to be in the Eu or put anything in to it?

Snobbery to brexit voters equals not buckling and giving us everything we want because empire and WW2.

[Alf]

Do you know all those votes that Boris lost in Parliament this week? Not of them should count, because none of those MPs knew what they was voting for, so that automatically means that those things can't be implemented. I decided that they didn't know what they was voting for and you have to agree with me.