[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The pro-life people are not pro-life, they are pro-control because they only give a **** about limiting choice by feigning concern for a bunch of cells, when the actual baby comes along, they don't give a **** and they certainly don't give a **** about black pregnancies and mothers or their children.

Black lives matter and life begins at birth.

That's a great point, as you know we only had a referendum here on abortion a few years ago, and the vast majority of people campaigning against it were men and the only ones I spoke to in real life about it, I knew for a fact were the ones who had no idea what it took to raise a child. It's weird because when I was younger I was against abortion, it wasn't until I actually had a child myself and really understood in real terms what it all entailed did I switch very firmly to the pro-choice side

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's a great point, as you know we only had a referendum here on abortion a few years ago, and the vast majority of people campaigning against it were men and the only ones I spoke to in real about it, I knew for a fact were the ones who had no idea what it took to raise a child. It's weird because when I was younger I was against abortion, it wasn't until I actually had a child myself and really understood in real terms what it all entailed did I switch very firmly to the pro-choice side

It's never been about anything other than control. Just look at the southern states in the US that tried to implement tougher controls on Abortion last year. The people behind that movement probably saw the Handmaid's Tale as something to aspire to.

Children get taken into care where they are abused and discarded within the system because unfit parents couldn't take care of them but the pro-life people don't care about them. They'll call themselves pro-life yet ignore the fact that black lives are being killed by the police everyday, they'll ignore the ethnic cleansing that China is attempting on Uighur muslims (the latest attempt is that China is forcing birth control and abortions on them) and they'll ignore the south american children locked up in cages at the US border but the world will stop for a woman choosing to abort a bundle of cells that she is ill-equipped to care for.

If our biology were to suddenly change overnight and men were the ones who gave birth, abortion would go unopposed throughout the world.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's weird because when I was younger I was against abortion, it wasn't until I actually had a child myself and really understood in real terms what it all entailed did I switch very firmly to the pro-choice side

This applies to me & my wife as well - we were anti-abortion until we had kids, which sound AWFUL as a standalone statement (like we wish we'd done it ) but that's obviously not the case... just that we didn't understand how truly life-altering having a child is until we had children. Especially having a child with additional needs, if we had gotten pregnant again we would have had to strongly consider (and likely would have gone with) abortion purely because we know we simply wouldn't be able to give our youngest the time and attention she needs with another younger child in the mix. There are multiple, huge considerations for anyone bringing a child into the world.

I am still against late-stage abortions unless there are significant medical reasons for it (because being blunt, at that stage the "bundle of cells" argument is little more than a comfortable lie) but yeah I do find that most strongly anti-abortion people are either very naive (don't understand the implications) or very privileged (the implications are less, because they have the means to hire as much help as they need).

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This applies to me & my wife as well - we were anti-abortion until we had kids, which sound AWFUL as a standalone statement (like we wish we'd done it ) but that's obviously not the case... just that we didn't understand how truly life-altering having a child is until we had children. Especially having a child with additional needs, if we had gotten pregnant again we would have had to strongly consider (and likely would have gone with) abortion purely because we know we simply wouldn't be able to give our youngest the time and attention she needs with another younger child in the mix. There are multiple, huge considerations for anyone bringing a child into the world.

Yes, absolutely goes for me as well. And I would still say on a personal level I probably still wouldn't have an abortion myself unless the baby had a severe disability - which also sounds awful but I don't think I could cope with being a full time carer and don't think it would be fair to my other children or the child itself, what quality of life would you be bringing them into and what happens if they out live me and my husband etc

I am still against late-stage abortions unless there are significant medical reasons for it (because being blunt, at that stage the "bundle of cells" argument is little more than a comfortable lie) but yeah I do find that most strongly anti-abortion people are either very naive (don't understand the implications) or very privileged (the implications are less, because they have the means to hire as much help as they need).

Absolutely 100% agree with this also

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This applies to me & my wife as well - we were anti-abortion until we had kids, which sound AWFUL as a standalone statement (like we wish we'd done it ) but that's obviously not the case... just that we didn't understand how truly life-altering having a child is until we had children. Especially having a child with additional needs, if we had gotten pregnant again we would have had to strongly consider (and likely would have gone with) abortion purely because we know we simply wouldn't be able to give our youngest the time and attention she needs with another younger child in the mix. There are multiple, huge considerations for anyone bringing a child into the world.

I am still against late-stage abortions unless there are significant medical reasons for it (because being blunt, at that stage the "bundle of cells" argument is little more than a comfortable lie) but yeah I do find that most strongly anti-abortion people are either very naive (don't understand the implications) or very privileged (the implications are less, because they have the means to hire as much help as they need).

100 per cent

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's a great point, as you know we only had a referendum here on abortion a few years ago, and the vast majority of people campaigning against it were men and the only ones I spoke to in real about it, I knew for a fact were the ones who had no idea what it took to raise a child. It's weird because when I was younger I was against abortion, it wasn't until I actually had a child myself and really understood in real terms what it all entailed did I switch very firmly to the pro-choice side

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

Beyond 24 weeks I think the limitation should quite strictly be to either the child having severe, heavily life-limiting/painful disabilities or a risk to the mother's physical health in continuing the pregnancy/birth.

Of course that needs to go hand-in-hand with quick, free access to early stage abortions with no "waiting lists".

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with all that, the only thing I will add is that life does not begin at birth anyone who has felt a child kicking in the womb will know this , and that is why there is quite rightly a cap at 24 weeks

Yes I agree 100%