[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not 6 inches of makeup.

7

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think obviously at airports, you'd simply lower the mask for a few seconds. It does pose an interesting question shen it comes to ID in shops for age verification, though. An awful lot of mask-touching going on if you have to remove it for an age check.

isn't age check done with actual ID

oh ignore me I get what you mean now, blue eyes with a brown eyed DL would be a bit of a giveaway though

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Can’t wait for all the people that won’t wear a mask to kick off in November when we don’t want to wear a poppy

So much this

[Beso]

KNOW THE LAW!

Remember, according to social distancing, shop staff cannot “touch” you or come within 1 metre without breaking guidelines, (but of course they touch everything you’re buying) and if you refuse to wear a mask in their shop they cannot physically throw you out, but can only call the police to enforce a government 'guideline'. The big problem for the police is that that would be breaking the Law if they tried to enforce a 'guideline', because police can only legally enforce Criminal Law.

If the police detain you, or arrest you because, naturally, you have refused to cooperate, they are then guilty of unlawful detention, which comes under the criminal code of 'kidnapping'.
If they try to fine you, without first 'kidnapping' you, you are not obliged to give them any information, not even your name, and without your name they cannot issue a fine.

If they find out your name, by whatever means and then issue a fine, you can simply state that you refuse to accept or pay any fine and they will then be obliged to caution you, which would be totally illegal since you will not have committed any crime (guidelines being optional to follow) and again, they would not be enforcing any law.

Know the difference: Guidelines come under 'civil law' and crimes come under 'criminal law'. The police are not allowed to enforce 'civil law' - only the local authority and the civil courts can attempt to do that. So, demand that the Court issue you with a date for an appearance, and when/if you go to court your defence will be illegal detention and kidnapping, and in the civil court you will be able to demand substantial compensation as a counter-claim from the police, plus insist that criminal charges are brought against the arresting and detaining officers.

Now, nobody says that it will get to that stage, indeed it would be very unlikely to, but can you imagine how the Courts will be clogged up for years, perhaps decades, trying to process those bloody awkward bastards who had the bald-faced cheek to know the Law and also know their civil rights.

PS: Ensure you use your phone and record the whole even, to be used as leverage and evidence. But just remember this one fact - the police cannot enforce civil Law and therefore have no rights in determining whether or not you have to wear a mask, just because the government says so. That process would be called a 'dictatorship' and we are not quite there yet, despite this government's valiant attempts to make it so.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by parmnion

KNOW THE LAW!

Remember, according to social distancing, shop staff cannot “touch” you or come within 1 metre without breaking guidelines, (but of course they touch everything you’re buying) and if you refuse to wear a mask in their shop they cannot physically throw you out, but can only call the police to enforce a government 'guideline'. The big problem for the police is that that would be breaking the Law if they tried to enforce a 'guideline', because police can only legally enforce Criminal Law.

If the police detain you, or arrest you because, naturally, you have refused to cooperate, they are then guilty of unlawful detention, which comes under the criminal code of 'kidnapping'.
If they try to fine you, without first 'kidnapping' you, you are not obliged to give them any information, not even your name, and without your name they cannot issue a fine.

If they find out your name, by whatever means and then issue a fine, you can simply state that you refuse to accept or pay any fine and they will then be obliged to caution you, which would be totally illegal since you will not have committed any crime (guidelines being optional to follow) and again, they would not be enforcing any law.

Know the difference: Guidelines come under 'civil law' and crimes come under 'criminal law'. The police are not allowed to enforce 'civil law' - only the local authority and the civil courts can attempt to do that. So, demand that the Court issue you with a date for an appearance, and when/if you go to court your defence will be illegal detention and kidnapping, and in the civil court you will be able to demand substantial compensation as a counter-claim from the police, plus insist that criminal charges are brought against the arresting and detaining officers.

Now, nobody says that it will get to that stage, indeed it would be very unlikely to, but can you imagine how the Courts will be clogged up for years, perhaps decades, trying to process those bloody awkward bastards who had the bald-faced cheek to know the Law and also know their civil rights.

PS: Ensure you use your phone and record the whole even, to be used as leverage and evidence. But just remember this one fact - the police cannot enforce civil Law and therefore have no rights in determining whether or not you have to wear a mask, just because the government says so. That process would be called a 'dictatorship' and we are not quite there yet, despite this government's valiant attempts to make it so.

The Karen energy in this copy and paste, far too much.

[The Slim Reaper]

Don't shops have the right to serve who they want, Dezzy? As long as it's not discriminatory in nature, of course, and public health/safety of their staff most definitely couldn't be labelled as such.

[Cherie]

funny how no one had an issue with being paid their wages by the government to stay at home, but cover your nose and mouth, I don't think so, the government wont tell me what to do

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Don't shops have the right to serve who they want, Dezzy? As long as it's not discriminatory in nature, of course, and public health/safety of their staff most definitely couldn't be labelled as such.

Pretty much, if someone refuses to leave, shop workers can and will call the police and no karen interpretation of the laws will save them from being arrested.

There's gonna be a lot of fines issued out to morons when this comes into effect.

[user104658]

Just so that no one takes Parmy's terrible advice:

Yes whichever Facebook smart arse wrote that is technically correct, however, they only gave you half the story. After one incident, the shop (because shops are private businesses, not public spaces) can take out a trespass order against you, and once served with the trespass order (the next time you try to enter the shop) if you go onto the premises you absolutely can be arrested and charged with trespassing.

That is if you're being respectful.

Next up; what happens if you kick off? Because whilst the above applies to ALL shops and stores (clothes and tech stores etc) - supermarkets and most convenience stores sell alcohol, so they are licensed premises. Refusing to leave a licensed premises on request of those responsible for said premises, when that person believes that you are engaging in disorderly conduct, IS a criminal offense and you can be physically removed from the property by premises security or by the police. If you resist, you can be arrested.

In 10 years working for the ol bookies (which is licensed because of gambling, not alcohol, but the same rules apply) I have had COUNTLESS individuals physically removed from the premises by police, at least 5 arrested, and had two court trespass orders issued banning people for life.

So by all means go ahead if it's a shop you never intend to go to again. If its your local supermarket, I'd suggest that getting banned for life isn't worth it, and you should put on your mask .

You've been given dud advice Parmy.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just so that no one takes Parmy's terrible advice:

Yes whichever Facebook smart arse wrote that is technically correct, however, they only gave you half the story. After one incident, the shop (because shops are private businesses, not public spaces) can take out a trespass order against you, and once served with the trespass order (the next time you try to enter the shop) if you go onto the premises you absolutely can be arrested and charged with trespassing.

That is if you're being respectful.

Next up; what happens if you kick off? Because whilst the above applies to ALL shops and stores (clothes and tech stores etc) - supermarkets and most convenience stores sell alcohol, so they are licensed premises. Refusing to leave a licensed premises on request of those responsible for said premises, when that person believes that you are engaging in disorderly conduct, IS a criminal offense and you can be physically removed from the property by premises security or by the police. If you resist, you can be arrested.

In 10 years working for the ol bookies (which is licensed because of gambling, not alcohol, but the same rules apply) I have had COUNTLESS individuals physically removed from the premises by police, at least 5 arrested, and had two court trespass orders issued banning people for life.

So by all means go ahead if it's a shop you never intend to go to again. If its your local supermarket, I'd suggest that getting banned for life isn't worth it, and you should put on your mask .

You've been given dud advice Parmy.

I mean on one hand this, but on the other is facebook. I don't know what to believe.

[user104658]

Come to think of it, I don't think it would be hard to argue that trying to force entry past door staff without a mask in the first place could be argued as disorderly conduct.

What happens when you try to enter a club with a dress/footwear code in the wrong clothes and argue with the bouncers when they turn you away?

Its exactly the same principle. You don't have a legal right to enter a licenced premises.

[Niamh.]

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The Karen energy in this copy and paste, far too much.

That actually came from a lefty.

[The Slim Reaper]

Niamh being a "watersports" advocate is certainly new information.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Niamh being a "watersports" advocate is certainly new information.

[Beso]

You cant get fined 100 pound for not wearing a mask by the police.. nor can you be arrested for not wearing one by the police.

My advice is good advice..as long as you dont get aggresive with the supermarket staff.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That is a very good metaphor, it works exactly like that. I am sick at the moment with a high temperature and I am so glad I wore my mask the whole time when I was out the other day. It's probably not covid-19 but it's quite nice that if I am contagious then there's a lower chance that I passed it on to anyone.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

That is a very good metaphor, it works exactly like that. I am sick at the moment with a high temperature and I am so glad I wore my mask the whole time when I was out the other day. It's probably not covid-19 but it's quite nice that if I am contagious then there's a lower chance that I passed it on to anyone.

Oh hope you're OK Jess

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh hope you're OK Jess

Thanks, I called the covid-19 helpline for Portugal and they gave me advice, I am okay, they aren't worried that I have it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You cant get fined 100 pound for not wearing a mask by the police.. nor can you be arrested for not wearing one by the police.

My advice is good advice..as long as you dont get aggresive with the supermarket staff.

A supermarket is a licensed premises and you can be asked to leave by staff. If you refuse to leave, you can be removed by police. It doesn't matter if you're aggressive or not. I worked in licensed retail management for nearly a decade Parmy.

Whether or not you can be arrested or fined is another matter but if the police come to escort you off of the premises they can do so physically and if you fight them you can then be arrested.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Thanks, I called the covid-19 helpline for Portugal and they gave me advice, I am okay, they aren't worried that I have it.

That's good, do you need to self isolate now or not?

[Cherie]

Lots of very long posts on this ...the only law you need to know is shops are private property so they can deny you entry...like they have done for topless men and people in PJs

[Beso]

Do you have to wear one if it effects a health condition you suffer from?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Do you have to wear one if it effects a health condition you suffer from?

They've been proven not to affect the oxygen sats of people with asthma and COPD etc. so what sort of health condition?

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Do you have to wear one if it effects a health condition you suffer from?

I don't get this, Parm. You were quite critical of Boris acting slowly when it kicked off, and now you're looking for loopholes so you don't have to wear a mask and work with everyone else to try and keep folks as safe as possible.