[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

At some point she's descended into being a bit petty, which is a shame, but there was nothing wrong with her actual articles. And that's not to say that I agree with everything she said but - and this is the part I think some people struggle with - not agreeing with every aspect of an article doesn't mean there was something wrong with it. That's where the dogged insistence on a consensus of thought and opinion comes in, and that's the part that concerns me. "Don't be a dick" too often comes with the caveat of "... And if you hold opinions contrary to mine, you're being a dick".

I also think the people sending porn and rape threats, the supposed transpeople telling her to suck their ****, are a SMALL and extreme percentage of the people who disagree with her BUT I think a much larger and more worrying proportion refuse to condemn the aggressive ones because, again, group cohesion is seen as vital to "maintaining a voice". Which is why I found the "we hold our own to account" part a bit hard to swallow.

It's a shame because what these trans activists are doing is almost proving why she's concerned and most of them probably aren't even trans people.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do agree also with the debate on the vid that James posted, that JKR is not the best example in considering aspects of ‘cancel culture’ ...because she’ll never be ‘cancelled’...it’s not in a ‘pack or mob’ power to cause that...

I think it makes her an excellent example when used in a set of other examples; people expected it to work better than it did and when it was like firing a BB gun at a freight train, they became increasingly frustrated and aggressive.

Some people are FURIOUS that JK Rowling is not cancelled.

The argument that cancel culture doesn't exist because it doesn't often work is quite a flimsy one. The fact that it often fails is largely irrelevant.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's a shame because what these trans activists are doing is almost proving why she's concerned and most of them probably aren't even trans people.

That's why I think the extremes of trans activism are doing far more damage to trans acceptance right now than good. A lot of the Twitter accounts making threats or "wishes" of sexual violence are, at least in claim, transwomen... By "the rules" that has to be accepted because we're supposed to accept without reservation that self-ID is all that's required. They say they are women, so they are women.

Except that using threats, wishes or jokes about sexual violence as a shaming technique against women is a very psychologically male mindset. It's a thing that MEN do when they are angry. This is pretty well studied by psychological shaming researchers. So you have a group of biologically male transwomen engaging in male behaviours that come from male socialisation - male gendered behaviour - while insisting that they are women by gender. It turns the whole thing into a sham.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well I'm just saying, you're the one saying that cancel culture is a figment of the rights imagination when that's clearly not true.

*disclaimer - I'm not defending the right here at all

I didn’t say it’s in their imagination, what they’re doing is disproportionately highlighting a very small minority of angry, obsessed, abusive people and claiming they’re the targets of a pandemic like ‘culture’ when they themselves in fact, relish in the consequences and situations people they don’t like face, mob rule doesn’t get people fired, if an employer didn’t think they had done something to bring whatever they do into disrepute, or goes against what they believe in as a company or organisation, they wouldn’t be fired, by allocating intellectually dishonest and unproven power to a minority, they’re creating a loophole to avoid responsibility.

If people don’t agree with that it’s fine, I’m not gonna cancel them.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think it makes her an excellent example when used in a set of other examples; people expected it to work better than it did and when it was like firing a BB gun at a freight train, they became increasingly frustrated and aggressive.

Some people are FURIOUS that JK Rowling is not cancelled.

The argument that cancel culture doesn't exist because it doesn't often work is quite a flimsy one. The fact that it often fails is largely irrelevant.

...(...I think, honestly...)...that the ‘some people who are furious’ are a very, very small minority...who if their ‘views’ or ‘opinions’ or whatever incorporate ones of violent acts toward her or anyone else...are not people who we can look at as having any type of reasonable social reasoning...they’re abusive online trolls who should be dealt with by the police...and I honestly doubt also that their aggression is because they’ve experienced a ‘freight train’, it’s the way they would express themselves with whoever that person was...they’re very much a huge part of what goes to make social media in the modern day so toxic...because they don’t care who they throw their toxicity at...?...the Internet is a place that enables dehumanisation to them...

...anyways, as I said...I’m going to leave the specific JKR debate for others
but I was very interested in other examples in the debate that James posted because had actually been ‘cancelled’...or had they..?...hmmmmm...we rarely get ‘complete stories’ with no slanting is another issue...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I didn’t say it’s in their imagination, what they’re doing is disproportionately highlighting a very small minority of angry, obsessed, abusive people and claiming they’re the targets of a pandemic like ‘culture’ when they themselves in fact, relish in the consequences and situations people they don’t like face, mob rule doesn’t get people fired, if an employer didn’t think they had done something to bring whatever they do into disrepute, or goes against what they believe in as a company or organisation, they wouldn’t be fired, by allocating intellectually dishonest and unproven power to a minority, they’re creating a loophole to avoid responsibility.



If people don’t agree with that it’s fine, I’m not gonna cancel them.

I'd suggest reading a book called "So You've Been Publicly Shamed". Partly just because it's a very easy and engaging read but also because - whilst in my opinion it's not without its own flaws and I have some criticisms of the authors own behaviour - it is full of real-world examples of "successful cancelling" and the effects on people's lives and mental health. It's been going on for a lot longer than its had a name. It also talks about how damaging it can be to people even when it fails.

That doesn't mean that there aren't people exploiting the narrative to their own ends as well.

Both can be true. This is indeed part of the problem; refusal to accept that literally everything is grey.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...(...I think, honestly...)...that the ‘some people who are furious’ are a very, very small minority...who if their ‘views’ or ‘opinions’ or whatever incorporate ones of violent acts toward her or anyone else...are not people who we can look at as having any type of reasonable social reasoning...they’re abusive online trolls who should be dealt with by the police...and I honestly doubt also that their aggression is because they’ve experienced a ‘freight train’, it’s the way they would express themselves with whoever that person was...they’re very much a huge part of what goes to make social media in the modern day so toxic...because they don’t care who they throw their toxicity at...?...the Internet is a place that enables dehumanisation to them...



...anyways, as I said...I’m going to leave the specific JKR debate for others

but I was very interested in other examples in the debate that James posted because had actually been ‘cancelled’...or had they..?...hmmmmm...we rarely get ‘complete stories’ with no slanting is another issue...

Again though I agree about it being a tiny minority - the problem is that people are willingly blinkered to that small, but very loud, minority because its singing from the same opinion-sheet.

Like I said above... People all too willing to jump on people and hold them to account for their OPINIONS, whilst refusing to hold others to account for their BEHAVIOUR.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's why I think the extremes of trans activism are doing far more damage to trans acceptance right now than good. A lot of the Twitter accounts making threats or "wishes" of sexual violence are, at least in claim, transwomen... By "the rules" that has to be accepted because we're supposed to accept without reservation that self-ID is all that's required. They say they are women, so they are women.

Except that using threats, wishes or jokes about sexual violence as a shaming technique against women is a very psychologically male mindset. It's a thing that MEN do when they are angry. This is pretty well studied by psychological shaming researchers. So you have a group of biologically male transwomen engaging in male behaviours that come from male socialisation - male gendered behaviour - while insisting that they are women by gender. It turns the whole thing into a sham.

Exactly. And this is why the shutting down of any attempts at conversation about self ID, trans rights vs women's sex based rights etc is damaging to both women and trans women. Telling a group who are genuinely concerned about how their rights will be affected by new laws to shut up and start calling them names and threatening them if they don't is really only going to cause a bigger divide and so much bad blood

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again though I agree about it being a tiny minority - the problem is that people are willingly blinkered to that small, but very loud, minority because its singing from the same opinion-sheet.

Like I said above... People all too willing to jump on people and hold them to account for their OPINIONS, whilst refusing to hold others to account for their BEHAVIOUR.

...well, we’re going to have to disagree that people are willingly blinkered that those type of extreme ‘views’, which is basically online abuse, I think that minority also would be people who hold similar extreme views themselves but are happy for others to take the mouthpiece more, maybe...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. And this is why the shutting down of any attempts at conversation about self ID, trans rights vs women's sex based rights etc is damaging to both women and trans women. Telling a group who are genuinely concerned about how their rights will be affected by new laws to shut up and start calling them names and threatening them if they don't is really only going to cause a bigger divide and so much bad blood

I think there are two groups of people genuinely worried about their future and rights and because there's such strong resistance around having actual vulnerable, open conversations about it it's spiraling into frustration and anger at an increasing pace. Any open conversation about this involves acknowledging that there is a difference between transwomen and biologically female women and that has become an unapproachable topic... I have no idea how any progress can be made at all from that point.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...well, we’re going to have to disagree that people are willingly blinkered that those type of extreme ‘views’, which is basically online abuse, I think that minority also would be people who hold similar extreme views themselves but are happy for others to take the mouthpiece more, maybe...

I rarely see it condemned and when it is condemned, the people who dared to speak up often find themselves targeted next. Perhaps that's the issue. People aren't refusing to speak up because they agree with the extreme rhetoric, they're refusing to speak up because they themselves are scared of the extreme fringes of their own group. A worrying trend either way and highlighting one of the many pitfalls of relying on "strength in numbers" over individual strength of argument.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I rarely see it condemned and when it is condemned, the people who dared to speak up often find themselves targeted next. Perhaps that's the issue. People aren't refusing to speak up because they agree with the extreme rhetoric, they're refusing to speak up because they themselves are scared of the extreme fringes of their own group. A worrying trend either way and highlighting one of the many pitfalls of relying on "strength in numbers" over individual strength of argument.

....with social media online abuse/pack mentality/bullying etc...as on here, the power would be in the reporting and that isn’t something that you or I would see, when done by others...i won’t assume that people are ‘willingly blinkered’ when they may rather be utilising their ‘best power’ and indeed their only power...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think there are two groups of people genuinely worried about their future and rights and because there's such strong resistance around having actual vulnerable, open conversations about it it's spiraling into frustration and anger at an increasing pace. Any open conversation about this involves acknowledging that there is a difference between transwomen and biologically female women and that has become an unapproachable topic... I have no idea how any progress can be made at all from that point.

Yeah agree with that. This is where the sex vs gender thing becomes a problem too because womens sex based rights are based mostly around our biology rather than our thoughts and feelings, so although on the one hand I get why transwomen don't want to think that biology should be seen as an important factor in being a woman but the reality of it is that it plays a huge part when it comes to things like sport and certain sex segregated spaces

[Liam-]

Abusive trolls are everywhere, everyone gets them, footballers, singers, artists, actors, it’s not exclusive to people with opinions, trolls aren’t indicative of any type of specific culture other than anonymity based confidence to be offensive, I feel like it’s being lumped into a discussion to try and help a certain narrative

[Ammi]

...I don’t know whether this was one of the first that could have been described as ‘cancel culture’ if that label had existed then...but it’s the first I recall because of the tragedy of the outcome and because I think it showed the ‘power’ of social media pack mentality, in its earlier years, if you like...very dangerous even as a small social media infant...


The World Reacts to Royal Baby News (Dec. 3): Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, is hospitalized for a severe case of morning sickness. As soon as the news spreads that the world's favorite royal couple is expecting much speculation begins over the unborn child who will one day most likely ascend to the throne of England. During Kate Middleton's hospital stay, two Australian radio disc jockeys make a prank call to the hospital pretending to be Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles. The call is broadcast on the radio in Australia and later around the world. (Dec. 6): Kate Middleton is released from the hospital. She returns home to rest. The prank by the Australian D.J.'s turns tragic when Jacintha Saldanha, the nurse who took the call, commits suicide. The police announce her death as "being treated as unexplained." However, the two D.J.'s are blamed on social media.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Abusive trolls are everywhere, everyone gets them, footballers, singers, artists, actors, it’s not exclusive to people with opinions, trolls aren’t indicative of any type of specific culture other than anonymity based confidence to be offensive, I feel like it’s being lumped into a discussion to try and help a certain narrative

I don’t like Owen Jones but he’s been physically assaulted for stating his opinions online, but it’s not an example of cancel culture because people don’t agree with him. Jk Rowling is an example of cancel culture because some people agree with her. It’s bs and it exposes people’s actual intentions when they cry ‘free speech’ and cancel culture’

[Elliot]

The right are so obsessed with the free market, is cancel culture not a direct product of it?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Abusive trolls are everywhere, everyone gets them, footballers, singers, artists, actors, it’s not exclusive to people with opinions, trolls aren’t indicative of any type of specific culture other than anonymity based confidence to be offensive, I feel like it’s being lumped into a discussion to try and help a certain narrative

The thing is though, I can see the issues quite clearly and I have no chips on the table whatsoever. I'm not female, I'm not trans, I'm not right-wing...I don't even HAVE a Twitter account... I have no agenda whatsoever other than the belief that if you close off issues from any discussion it will result in a mess of uneducated populism that doesn't reflect any reality. The trans debate is headed that way with its various mantras and expectation of consensus "transwomen are women", "silence is violence" and recently descending into some really questionable pseudoscientific biology. Are transwomen women? My only answer is "I don't know, because you won't let anyone do any proper psych work in that area".

And no, it's not just Twitter, there's currently a massive and very real issue with organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall refusing to let child mental health specialists work with young people, even with open and non-judgemental conversations, that do anything other than unquestioningly confirm. It's so far from responsible health practice that I don't even know where to start, but people have been harassed and, yes, forced out of their jobs for non-compliance. Its becoming a very real-world problem with massive ethical implications but no one is allowed to talk about it for fear of causing offence, and insane allegations that discussing it is akin to "murder".

Im afraid that I do have my own hard line "wrong think" thoughts I guess.

Anyone who tries to tell me that you "can't, shouldn't, or aren't allowed" to have an adademix debate or discussion about any topic is... Wrong.

[Toy Soldier]

As for how the above is related to "cancel culture" - the reason that academics and professionals are not having these discussions or doing this research is not that they are literally not allowed to do so. They simply won't do it because of the fear that doing so will lead to being targeted, doxxed or losing their livelihood. That is the effect of "cancel culture". Not people actually being cancelled, but social control using fear. People just won't go there in the first place.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is though, I can see the issues quite clearly and I have no chips on the table whatsoever. I'm not female, I'm not trans, I'm not right-wing...I don't even HAVE a Twitter account... I have no agenda whatsoever other than the belief that if you close off issues from any discussion it will result in a mess of uneducated populism that doesn't reflect any reality. The trans debate is headed that way with its various mantras and expectation of consensus "transwomen are women", "silence is violence" and recently descending into some really questionable pseudoscientific biology. Are transwomen women? My only answer is "I don't know, because you won't let anyone do any proper psych work in that area".

And no, it's not just Twitter, there's currently a massive and very real issue with organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall refusing to let child mental health specialists work with young people, even with open and non-judgemental conversations, that do anything other than unquestioningly confirm. It's so far from responsible health practice that I don't even know where to start, but people have been harassed and, yes, forced out of their jobs for non-compliance. Its becoming a very real-world problem with massive ethical implications but no one is allowed to talk about it for fear of causing offence, and insane allegations that discussing it is akin to "murder".

Im afraid that I do have my own hard line "wrong think" thoughts I guess.

Anyone who tries to tell me that you "can't, shouldn't, or aren't allowed" to have an adademix debate or discussion about any topic is... Wrong.

Because any conversations into trans issues quickly descend into transphobia and hate. Look on the comments section of ANYTHING to do with anything remotely about trans people and the comments will be full of fat pieces of gammon **** being transphobic and homophobic and just generally ****.

People get "cancelled" because they say something others disagree with, and stick to that. People who disagree no longer acknowledge them. It's basic free speech. JK can continue discussing trans issues, but it will just push people away.

Cancel culture basically boils down to "yeah, nah, I'm not listening to this bull**** any more, bye" which is just basic human interaction. Yeah, people who are cancelled may find they lose book deals or TV show appearances. But if I was a piece of **** on facebook, you can guarantee it would affect my job prospects too. These people are in the public eye 24/7 so of course the reaction to them being a piece of **** will be much greater.

In regards to trolls making threats against people who they disagree with, that's never okay, and I would never condone that.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As for how the above is related to "cancel culture" - the reason that academics and professionals are not having these discussions or doing this research is not that they are literally not allowed to do so. They simply won't do it because of the fear that doing so will lead to being targeted, doxxed or losing their livelihood. That is the effect of "cancel culture". Not people actually being cancelled, but social control using fear. People just won't go there in the first place.

And there you have it, people are scared of something because bad faith actors are causing hysteria by amplifying a minority of voices that have no real effect, like you said, people aren’t actually being cancelled, but people are told people are being cancelled, that is the control that is happening, it’s a tactic old as time, it’s how we got Brexit, it’s how we got Trump and it’s how we got Johnson, minority cases are taken, exploited, amplified and distorted, misinformation is spread and fear ensues, it’s gas lighting 101, are there horrible abusive people out there? Of course there are, there always will be, but they’ll never be the majority and they’ll never really have any real power or influence

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Scarlett.

Because any conversations into trans issues quickly descend into transphobia and hate. Look on the comments section of ANYTHING to do with anything remotely about trans people and the comments will be full of fat pieces of gammon **** being transphobic and homophobic and just generally ****.

On the Internet, yes, I agree but how does that translate into blocking academics and mental health professionals from having important discussions and carrying out and sharing actual research? The situation in CAMHS at the moment is a disaster, and people are terrified to go there, because it can ruin careers, so I can't see this improving any time soon.

People get "cancelled" because they say something others disagree with, and stick to that. People who disagree no longer acknowledge them. It's basic free speech. JK can continue discussing trans issues, but it will just push people away.



Cancel culture basically boils down to "yeah, nah, I'm not listening to this bull**** any more, bye" which is just basic human interaction. Yeah, people who are cancelled may find they lose book deals or TV show appearances. But if I was a piece of **** on facebook, you can guarantee it would affect my job prospects too. These people are in the public eye 24/7 so of course the reaction to them being a piece of **** will be much greater.



In regards to trolls making threats against people who they disagree with, that's never okay, and I would never condone that.

Thats only half of the story, it would be absolutely fine if it WAS about individual decisions and people wanting nothing to do with it on their own consideration, but it extends thoroughly into the issue of group identity. Its not "I want nothing to do with Rowling any more", it's "I want nothing to do with her any more, we shouldn't want anything to do with her any more, and if you disagree, you're no longer one of us".

Group rejection is an IMMENSELY powerful social motivator and it leads to countless people being unable to express a counter-opinion on a topic that has had a group consensus clearly outlined.

Why anyone would think that's a good thing I really have NO idea.

[bitontheslide]

it's lord of the flies

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And there you have it, people are scared of something because bad faith actors are causing hysteria by amplifying a minority of voices that have no real effect, like you said, people aren’t actually being cancelled, but people are told people are being cancelled, that is the control that is happening, it’s a tactic old as time, it’s how we got Brexit, it’s how we got Trump and it’s how we got Johnson, minority cases are taken, exploited, amplified and distorted, misinformation is spread and fear ensues, it’s gas lighting 101, are there horrible abusive people out there? Of course there are, there always will be, but they’ll never be the majority and they’ll never really have any real power or influence

People are scared of it happening to them because it does happen and they have seen it happen. A number of high-profile academics have been ripped to shreds for discussing the wrong things. Just because you haven't seen it yourself doesn't mean it's imaginary... I have seen careers ruined for refusing to blindly reinforce public zeitgeist. Group-identity-power and anti-intellectualism are all too real. Repeatedly insisting that they're goblins under the bed isn't going to change that.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As for how the above is related to "cancel culture" - the reason that academics and professionals are not having these discussions or doing this research is not that they are literally not allowed to do so. They simply won't do it because of the fear that doing so will lead to being targeted, doxxed or losing their livelihood. That is the effect of "cancel culture". Not people actually being cancelled, but social control using fear. People just won't go there in the first place.

I think you're generally right in this thread, although I have some minor disagreements, but that's quite the statement that you're going to need to back up.