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06-09-2020, 02:50 PM | #126 | ||
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There's nothing to address, people just have to realise that [insert prescribed stock reasoning], and if they don't then they are [insert randomly generated ad hominem] until they change their thinking. Also JK Rowling is a hag.
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06-09-2020, 02:51 PM | #127 | ||
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06-09-2020, 04:02 PM | #128 | |||
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This thread has done a great job at proving Withano right
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06-09-2020, 04:09 PM | #129 | ||
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06-09-2020, 04:19 PM | #130 | ||
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"You don't agree with me so therefore you're phobic and cruel and abusive" doesn't really work when all Withano has offered is to call people transphobic for not parroting the well-worn campaign phrases that ultimately mean nothing and help absolutely no one.
Like I said earlier, fake progress that, if anything, actually stalls progress further. For change to happen, things NEED to be discussed, the nuances worked out and solved. Change doesn't happen by telling other groups of people "We're changing things FOR you and you just have to accept it. ANY form of concern is transphobic". That entire brand of activism is false and chaotic. |
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06-09-2020, 04:29 PM | #131 | |||
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And shutting people down because they’re concerned about the very visible patterns of discrimination that has plagued a community forever, as ‘ridiculous’ ‘radical’ ‘emotional’ is helpful how exactly?
It seems like people want free reign to discuss the ‘dangers’ of the trans community, without having their opinions challenged, they call those opposing them dumb or naive or emotional as I mentioned, yet don’t like being referred to as things themselves.
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Last edited by Liam-; 06-09-2020 at 04:32 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 04:40 PM | #132 | ||
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What is dangerous is shutting down opposing discussion as phobic. Dangerous for the trans community. That is what is being labelled as ridiculous and extreme, not your support of the trans community. You consistently misrepresent what is being said and present it as something more extreme in order to close it down and stick it under the "transphobic" umbrella where it does not belong. "You can't stop trans people from entering women's changing rooms as it's discrimination" is not challenging any opinion. It's validating one group's concerns and invalidating another. I have no idea what the solution can be in the end, but it's certainly not by dismissing women, their views, their feelings and their rights. Last edited by Marsh.; 06-09-2020 at 04:43 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 04:48 PM | #133 | |||
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Wanting to change the rules of public bathrooms or changing areas to exclude trans women is inherently discriminatory, seeing as they already have the right to use them, there is no solution to it, other than the the often suggested, 3rd area specifically for transpeople or bouncers on the door checking people, I understand a woman’s every day anxiety about safety and whatnot, but is the answer to even further marginalise a minority? I don’t think so
I’m not misrepresenting anything, I’m responding to what people are saying and if we really want to talk about shutting down people’s views and invalidating their opinions, TS straight up told me he has more of a right to an opinion on this subject than me because he’s a straight man with kids, I haven’t once told people what they can or can’t say, or how they should feel, I’ve only ever stated my opinion, so I’m not quite sure why this ‘stop dismissing women’ line keeps getting thrown at me
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Last edited by Liam-; 06-09-2020 at 04:52 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 05:00 PM | #134 | ||
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If a club was to close its unisex bathrooms and split them into male and female, would that be "marginalising" men or women? No. So giving transpeople their very own safe space is really not marginalising them. It's literally making space for them and outright recognising and validating their existence. It think it was more a facetious response to your "my demographic has hard-fought for rights" as though it meant your opinion was worth more. I didn't see it like that but that's what he was referring to. I've been in a sexual relationship with Cal for two years so my opinion is better anyway. Last edited by Marsh.; 06-09-2020 at 05:09 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 05:15 PM | #135 | |||
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I wouldn’t see a separate area for transpeople as ‘validation’ at all, it would be an acknowledgement that they exist but keeping them away from general public areas, imo that would be seen as a sign that they weren’t accepted in society but instead tolerated. Quote:
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06-09-2020, 05:21 PM | #136 | |||
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Women aren't "marginalised and kept away" by having separate facilities to men. Trans people wouldn't be either. In fact, in turn, it would probably make them feel safer and more comfortable too. Last edited by Marsh.; 06-09-2020 at 05:22 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 05:57 PM | #137 | |||
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POW! BLAM!
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06-09-2020, 06:04 PM | #138 | |||
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You know my methods
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still wondering what numbers we are talking about here?
because lets face it, its an issue |
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06-09-2020, 06:06 PM | #139 | |||
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06-09-2020, 06:13 PM | #140 | ||
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And that is where things are currently standing, very firmly. Sadly. This is a relatively new phenomenon - it of course goes very much hand in hand with general political discourse from the last 10 or so years - but it is (as Marsh has pointed out a few times) unhelpful and damaging. Everyone has the right to be who they want to be as an individual, treated with respect and to not be attacked. "Hearing things you don't like hearing" is not an attack, and is not disrespect. Wanting conversations around the way forward that hears and considers transpeople AND women AND (most importantly in my opinion) fully considers safeguarding implications for vulnerable individuals is not "hateful". Seeking a robust evidence-based practice to pursue with children and adolescents who think they might be trans is imperative and not something for the "lived experience" mob to campaign against because they think it should be another way. People believe there is no safeguarding implication? Great! Allow the work to be done to generate a body of work that proves that, and then the next time it's brought up, you can argue that it doesn't with proper backup and citation. The suggestion and desire to be sure about these things isn't designed to "hurt anyone's feelings" and if it does, I can only really be blunt and say that safeguarding trumps feelings every single time. Sorry. Last edited by Toy Soldier; 06-09-2020 at 06:17 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 08:50 PM | #141 | ||
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Unless you thought my post was related to a hypothetical? Quote:
But, this discussion involves children and self ID which muddies the waters considerably. Last edited by Marsh.; 06-09-2020 at 08:56 PM. |
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06-09-2020, 08:54 PM | #142 | |||
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This Witch doesn't burn
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'put a bit of lippy on and run a brush through your hair, we are alcoholics, not savages' |
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07-09-2020, 06:10 AM | #143 | |||
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Quand il pleut, il pleut
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..I agree with Liam in that I don’t profess to know what the solution would be in terms of bathroom spaces etc...but as someone whose thoughts are strongly with human equality and considering the emotional and very difficult journey that is taken by ‘trans’...and how ‘separated’ they would have felt for so long, both before the journey and during it...it would just be awful for that ‘separation’ to continue in terms of those bathroom spaces and male to female finally reaching womanhood...Which is a place that they’d always felt they should have been from birth...
Last edited by Ammi; 07-09-2020 at 06:10 AM. |
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07-09-2020, 07:10 AM | #144 | ||
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However, yeah... The public bathroom is really surface level stuff. Child safeguarding, protection of vulnerable women in refuge etc., women's sport, the ability to use frank terminology in healthcare... These are the issues that at the very least need in depth, level-headed examination and discussion without the people trying to do that being targeted with guilt-tripping, accusations and aggression. |
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07-09-2020, 07:41 AM | #145 | |||
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Quand il pleut, il pleut
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...but I don’t know who these ‘people’ who got a bit stuck on the bathroom stuff are, TS...in terms of this original thread topic...it wasn’t Liam, I don’t think where the diversion began and it wasn’t me...with respect, actually ...it may even been you yourself being part of the bathroom space introduction with... ‘A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.‘..I’m not sure, I’m just skim reading...anyways, no matter because it’s how threads get diverted anyway and encompass many things, is what we often see...any safeguarding concerns are obviously something that have to be a primary as well/...and that safeguarding has to gel with equality also..which is what I profess to not knowing the answer to that and Liam was never dismissing or disregarding that, from what I can see... ...you say ‘compassionately’ and not ‘aggressively‘ and I completely agree with that...but then that last sentence of the first paragraph...really..?...that’s quite a minority ‘Twitter logic’ on this particular news story form what I’ve looked at...or at least there is another quite substantial balance of a completely different mindset... if people do indeed ‘get stuck on stuff’...then by definition of ‘being stuck‘...it can never be considered ‘surface’ at all... ...anyways, I really don’t wish to get involved further in this particular forum discussion atm...(..I won’t say never though, I might dip in and out...)...I’m actually quite confused with your stance and thoughts as well, TS, because they’re quite inconsistent with past similar-ish thread topics ...unless I’m recalling it incorrectly, which is entirely possible as well... Last edited by Ammi; 07-09-2020 at 07:51 AM. |
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07-09-2020, 09:26 AM | #146 | ||
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Interestingly though, I'd say my issue with this on the other side a few years ago, and my issue now, are actually more or less the same thing. I was getting frustrated at the time by people stating dangers "as fact" with absolutely no evidence. That still happens, but now I'm increasingly encountering people vehemently arguing that there are NO risks, additional considerations, child mental health or safeguarding concerns again with absolutely no evidence. In fact there IS evidence, that is being aggressively ignored, in the child mental health arena that the rhetoric being used by trans activists (not fringe ones, very mainstream groups) is directly damaging to the mental health of trans adolescents. When it comes down to it, I just want people to be able to do the ****ing legwork and be allowed to do so without being threatened, harrassed or intimidated "because it's hurting people's feelings". It's ridiculous. Grown adults whining about "hurtful stuff" and "things being like a slap in the face" at the expense of actual mental health research and child safeguarding. I have absolutely no time for it. |
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07-09-2020, 09:37 AM | #147 | |||
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I Love my brick
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It's so rare to see anyone do a u turn on any subject on TiBB TS but I'm glad you did actually take the time to listen and do some research for yourself. And I agree with that point of yours, research, proper research needs to be done on this, most especially for the sake of children and teenagers, I have read lately that puberty blockers being "fully reversible" is starting to be back tracked on now for one example. This is potential sterilisation of children, that has to be looked at properly
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Spoiler: Last edited by Niamh.; 07-09-2020 at 09:44 AM. |
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07-09-2020, 09:40 AM | #148 | |||
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Thank you Ammi
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07-09-2020, 09:47 AM | #149 | |||
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Quand il pleut, il pleut
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...as I say, I don’t really want to be involved in this discussion in a ‘forum’ way atm...so if it’s okay, I’ll just skim over most in replying but also say that I’ve absorbed all in the reading of...yeah, you’ve been on ‘both sides’ as it were with your stance.....that was my recollection and I’m sure, often Vicky’s recollection as well and sometimes, Niamh’s even, maybe....I mean I wasn’t criticising your opposite stance, just more confused by it ...and particularly to something you said...(...which I agree with..)...that to have the discussions needed...’ the way to tackle it should be compassionately’...words of wisdom, TS...I think that rearranging our views is such an essential, tbh...otherwise on everything, we would all be ‘stuck in one place’ and blinkered in our mindsets etc...we all learn every day in every way/ type thing and so many different sources of listening to learn and consider and reconsider..?...etc...my ‘life song’ as it were and actually, one of my chosen ‘death songs’...is Both Sides Now, because we often look at life’s discussions etc from both sides...and that’s a great thing and a very balanced thing...and a very privileged thing...?...and the thing that creates that compassion...that is so essential and so much ‘the right way’, whatever our particular stance/mindset... ...so I guess, final word ...(...for the moment..)... |
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07-09-2020, 09:48 AM | #150 | |||
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Quand il pleut, il pleut
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