[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

it doesn't go out of shot, one of the men is stood at the front of the shot with his chest right next to the camera, the ol' racist is off to the top right of the shot up a step a good 6ft away, the guy turns around and climbs the step moving towards him, he pushes him away and then he throws the punch. The old man is the initial verbal aggressor, and the initial physical aggressor. The attack was provoked but it was not by any stretch of the imagination self defense, he moved towards him with clear intent.

...well, you obviously have greater eyeballs than me, TS...because I couldn’t determine everything you say from the vid...but I guess that if it was always so clear, the justice system would be a lot easier and maybe not even always necessary...I did say ‘appear to pursue the physical’...because that’s how it appeared to be to me and if that was the case then ‘/self defence/reasonable force..’ etc would come into it...I guess we’ll have to wait to see...

[Liam-]

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

Exactly, the boys were getting off the bus and get got up to pursue them still shouting abuse, why they had to get off when they were the ones being racially abused is beyond me but heyho, old white people can do what they want without repercussions apparently

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

Him deserving sympathy =/= it being the right thing to do. I think he brought it on himself, I know he started the altercation, I think he should have had to answer (legally) for his actions. I don't think two large young men should have continued a physical altercation that they did not need to continue with someone smaller and frailer than them. How they felt is justifiable - I don't find their actions justifiable. He was not an active physical threat.

Moral judgement aside - I don't think it's a good look and if they'd caved in his head (which is actually quite feasible if a young fit guy is punching an old brittle skull full force) they'd achieve nothing other than getting themselves thrown in jail for a long time.

[Liam-]

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or not

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Deserved

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or not

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged

They're not more valid either, and my opinion and observation is that people - at least the ones with half a brain - get less inclined to violence and justifying unnecessary violence as they get older.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, really. Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do.

My opinion on this would have been very different when I was 25.

[Liam-]

I didn’t say my opinion was more valid either, but carry on making it personal if you wish, it’s only what you accuse other people of doing all the time, but sure

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

...yeah, this exactly...’in a perfect world’...but the world is far from perfect ...and even if he felt those prejudices and continued to do so forever and ever..the older guy’s ‘wisdom of age’....should have never levelled that hateful abuse in the care of his own safety...



....(..I still can’t see clearly that it most definitely wasn’t open to the reasonable force’ thing...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I didn’t say my opinion was more valid either, but carry on making it personal if you wish, it’s only what you accuse other people of doing all the time, but sure

I'm not making it personal, I'm specifically disagreeing with your opinion that retaliatory violence is a justifiable/morally sound response to aggression and pointing out that I find that younger people (not saying all do, or that no older people do) are more inclined to hold that position.

It's all entirely relevant to this thread?

[Ammi]

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as a whole, as such, he’s very anti violence from what I’ve seen of his thoughts...but more, that violence may inevitably happen because ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...and the older man in his wisdom of years should have known that...



...anyways, that all really...the vid isn’t clear enough for me tbh...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as such

He quite openly and explicitly has.

[bitontheslide]

it's all about the circumstances of the particular interaction. I know I have gotten particularly angry in some interactions and I even hit someone one time

Peer pressure can have an enormous impact, similarly if someone feels intimidated etc, they can hit out ... it may be wrong ... but it happens. People rarely get any training on how to de-escalate a situation, and it's probably the most important lesson you can learn in life

[arista]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He quite openly and explicitly has.

Yes 2nd post on this thread

Liam posted:
"Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be"

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes 2nd post on this thread

Liam posted:
"Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be"

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's all about the circumstances of the particular interaction. I know I have gotten particularly angry in some interactions and I even hit someone one time



Peer pressure can have an enormous impact, similarly if someone feels intimidated etc, they can hit out ... it may be wrong ... but it happens. People rarely get any training on how to de-escalate a situation, and it's probably the most important lesson you can learn in life

The only person I've ever hit that wasn't in actual self defense was at Uni and it was some tit from the rugby team which obviously is justified.

Also, relevant to the thread, I was 21 at the time and I wouldn't dream of it now. Not even a rugger.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

For Sure

[reece(:]

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by reece(:

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.

I think it's society's place to comment on violence regardless of colour actually but I do agree that the old man should have been the one asked to leave

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I agree with this , they would have had more credibility had they just filmed it and ignored him, all very much in the wrong. He is of an age that he was probably brought up this way and probably not fully composmentis, no excuses here just a thought and they were wrong to punch him in the head.

If there's no excuses why are you making excuses?...
My dad was born in 1926, he would never have dreamed of speaking that way about anyone.

That said I don't think they were right to hit him at all either. Yes they would have been very angry and frustrated but as said having filmed the whole thing it was certain there was going to be some justice. This might not be as severe now due to their retaliation.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by reece(:

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.

Up to the point of physical violence I agree, at that point I 100% disagree.

[Jack_]

1:00:59 (and also 25:16)

Youtube video