[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Do you actually believe that people like JK and the LGB alliance would be willing to sit and listen to trans representatives and their opinions and experiences? I personally don’t think so, as someone with not chips in the game’ It seems like people want to make all the decisions about the future of trans rights, without having to actually think about trans people themselves.

I see plenty of people (it's never going to be "all") willing to have open discussions and I see that willingness being branded transphobic, often aggressively, often without justification. I find "groups" and "alliances" to be inherently prescriptive and dogmatic, but yes I suspect Rowling would happily engage in individual discussion. At least, I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise.

At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

I see plenty of women - women who are open-minded and generally very accepting of social justice issues - expressing concern on this one and specifically expressing concern about being attacked for having concerns... So no, I don't think it's the same issue snd I don't think it's possible to dodge it by sweepingly branding people who are demonstrably not bigots as small minded or bigoted. It's just a go-to tactic because, yes, on social justice issues it is too often the case. But it doesn't fit here. It's being shoehorned. Unsuccessfully.

[Liam-]

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Do you actually believe that people like JK and the LGB alliance would be willing to sit and listen to trans representatives and their opinions and experiences? I personally don’t think so, as someone with ‘no chips in the game’ It seems like people want to make all the decisions about the future of trans rights, without having to actually think about trans people themselves.

At the end of the day JK is a business woman, now that her new book is coming out, it patently obvious to me that she’s done everything she’s done and said over the past few months, to garner whatever interest she could to further her sales, it’s the same as Piers Morgan stoking they ‘woke culture war’ to promote his new book and Lawrence Fox turning into a right wing rent-a-gob to elevate a flagging career, it’s a shame she’s had to go down this route because she’s a decent writer.

Totally disagree with that, JK Rowling is pretty left and has spent a lot of her time trying to appease people by making Dumbledore gay, Hermione could be black etc. She's also back tracked on a couple of likes on this debate previously so I think she was very reluctant to publicly get involved in the discussion for a long time for fear of this kind of backlash, ultimately though she's decided to speak

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Totally disagree with that, JK Rowling is pretty left and has spent a lot of her time trying to appease people by making Dumbledore gay, Hermione could be black etc. She's also back tracked on a couple of likes on this debate previously so I think she was very reluctant to publicly get involved in the discussion for a long time for fear of this kind of backlash, ultimately though she's decided to speak

She didn’t do that to ‘appease’ people, because there were never any demand for those things to be true, in both of those occasions she used minorities as a token to try and keep herself in the limelight and give herself a good ‘ally’ appearance, when personally I don’t think that could be further from the truth

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

She didn’t do that to ‘appease’ people, because there were never any demand for those things to be true, in both of those occasions she used minorities as a token to try and keep herself in the limelight and give herself a good ‘ally’ appearance, when personally I don’t think that could be further from the truth

https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/2913333992918877851

https://www.wired.com/story/the-inte...umbledore-gay/

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rius-black-gay

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

Online spaces are hardly the best place to have any discussion and that's actually one of my criticisms of JK Rowling; taking this to her Twitter which obviously has absolutely massive mainstream reach.

But the rhetoric and actions when it comes to trans activism are also affecting academics, professionals, evidence-based practice and areas that have direct safeguarding implications and that, I believe, is what has many women and child advocates very worried and what I think they frankly should be concerned about. "But it's offensive and transphobic to say that there might be safeguarding concerns!!" just isn't good enough. It doesn't matter that it's offensive. People's lived experience is important, people's opinions are valuable but the second that start affecting or seeking to affect professional spaces or policy whilst refusing proper scrutiny it is a step too far... And that absolutely is happening. Self ID is an absolute minefield and nightmare for safeguarding and things like inpatient mental health. Universal unquestioning acceptance (as pushed by mermaids) is a complete disaster for child mental health. These are just a few examples of stances that are branded "transphobic" even when it's qualified professionals involved in the discussion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/2913333992918877851

https://www.wired.com/story/the-inte...umbledore-gay/

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rius-black-gay

I’m not quite sure what they are meant to be proving?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

That’s not what I said though was it? You said a trans woman agreed with JK, as if that absolves her of everything people feel about her, not all trans people will agree on everything.

My point was, trump has black supporters, but it doesn’t make him any less racist.

[Elliot]

People wanted fleshed out good lgbtq representation, not off hand pandering

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I’m not quite sure what they are meant to be proving?

"because there were never any demand for those things to be true"

Yes there was, denying that is absurd, it's literally what people have always said about her reasoning in making Dumbledore gay

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

That’s not what I said though was it? You said a trans woman agreed with JK, as if that absolves her of everything people feel about her, not all trans people will agree on everything.

My point was, trump has black supporters, but it doesn’t make him any less racist.

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

"because there were never any demand for those things to be true"

Yes there was, denying that is absurd, it's literally what people have always said about her reasoning in making Dumbledore gay

People wrote fan fiction so JK made Dumbledore gay is a take tbh.

She used gay people as tokens to try and enhance her profit and her standing in society.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticised

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Trump has nothing to do with this discussion. Comparing the two is laughable. Rose speaks so much sense, have you even listened to her?

Indeed, Trump just gives a constant barrage of absolute nonsense whereas JK the worst I can really say is that I sometimes think "Hmmmm I think that's maybe a bit much" on a few of her points, but even then they tend to come with a thought process and reasoning behind them. I think that's the point really. No one should be dismissed out of hand if they've offered their thought process and reasoning - they've literally given you the thinking that can be countered and picked apart if you want to do that, to demonstrate to them and others where their logic has holes in it or is flawed. That's what a discussion is.

Part of the issue wuite clearly is that people DON'T do the reading - their allegiances tell them "this is bad stuff" so they repeat "this is bad stuff" and it shows. Because of the above. No reasoning on why it's bad; just "It's offensive. It's transphobia". How is it transphobia? - "Just is. Don't you know people are dying?".

Trying to compare it to Trump-style racist rants is purely false equivalency with intent - "cos we all know Trump is bad. You don't want to be seen as someone who would agree with a person like Trump, do you?"

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticised

Hang on a second there Liam, you are misrepresenting how this conversation went, I didn't say "but a transwoman agreed with her" I said there was a transwoman giving her opinion on the show this morning in direct reply to you saying trans people weren't being listened to, it's not my fault that transwoman didn't share your opinion

And for the record I don't need validation from trans people to believe women's and children's rights need to be taken in to account when discussing solutions that will work for everyone

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

It’s not laughable, saying ‘but a transwoman agreed with her!’ Doesn’t mean the way she’s gone about her ‘concerns’ about the trans community is right or shouldn’t be criticised

Yes but criticising would involve pointing out flawed, biased or insufficiently backed up thinking to criticise. "Das transphobia!" / "She is a transphobe!" / "That is offensive to transpeople!" is not criticism.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Hang on a second there Liam, you are misrepresenting how this conversation went, I didn't say "but a transwoman agreed with her" I said there was a transwoman giving her opinion on the show this morning in direct reply to you saying trans people weren't being listened to, it's not my fault that transwoman didn't share your opinion

And for the record I don't need validation from trans people to believe women's and children's rights need to be taken in to account when discussing solutions that will work for everyone

Right, but with all due respect, would you be highlighting her if she had disagreed with you and Jk? I very much doubt it, that’s my point, trans people who genuinely want to have a discussion about it, won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people and advocates are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

But there is literally no indication that this is the case, nor any attempt to demonstrate that this is the case other than "a feeling" - WHERE has there been any indication that JK Rowling isn't willing to discuss the issue with transpeople who want to have an actual evidence-based discussion about it (not a feelings-based rant). I'm actually asking. Can you point me to it? Because otherwise the talk of there being "a narrative that trans people are monsters who want to abuse people"... does feel pretty reactionary.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Right, but with all due respect, would you be highlighting her if she had disagreed with you and Jk? I very much doubt it, that’s my point, trans people who genuinely want to have a discussion about it, won’t be acknowledged by people like JK because it doesn’t fit their narrative that trans people and advocates are reactionary monsters who just want to abuse people

Well that isn't my narrative, infact my thoughts on it are very much that transpeople are going to end up being damaged as much by transactivists. I would love a solution to this that is beneficial to everyone and I would love to hear a good discussion about it without the word terf or transphobe being thrown around every two minutes. I absolutely do not think all transpeople are reactionary monsters wanting to abuse people. I'm only ever speaking about the large vocal social media folk here who are taking over this whole topic and trying to intimidate people into shutting up

[Toy Soldier]

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

absolutely agree

[Tom4784]

I enjoy the stories but I won't put another penny in her pockets. I can appreciate Harry Potter and will continue to appreciate it since I already own the books and not using them doesn't really affect her but I won't contribute anymore money to the franchise.