[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree but do your sympathies only extend to minority groups? Because you seem to have far less sympathy for women... Who are also attacked and killed, and facing unwarranted hatred, not for how they are choosing to live but simply for being women...

Honestly this isn't something I was always super aware of but once your eyes are open to it, it's absolutely everywhere.

Obviously I'm not saying that anyone should feel that way but I do find it utterly ludicrous when I see trans rights people openly attacking women as though they're coming from a place of privilege simply because they're "not a minority group".

You really read something that isn't there and that's sad. I really don't know what to answer to that tbh.

When I say I feel for minorities, it doesn't mean I'm not feeling anything for women who are also under constant threat and abuse too.
But next time I will make a full exhaustive list of things I have sympathy for and put it in my signature so you are not confused anylonger if that helps.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...there really is nothing in Remy’s mindset or stance that would indicate any lack of sympathy for women, none at all...just because he’s related some personal experiences of having spent much time working in LGBT shelters with abuse victims and his experiences aren’t that ‘trans abuse’ is a rare thing...he shows much consideration/thought/sympathy etc for all people with this topic...(..and all topics tbh...)...

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

You really read something that isn't there and that's sad. I really don't know what to answer to that tbh.

When I say I feel for minorities, it doesn't mean I'm not feeling anything for women who are also under constant threat and abuse too.
But next time I will make a full exhaustive list of things I have sympathy for and put it in my signature so you are not confused anylonger if that helps.

I tend to I base my opinions on the entire thread and not just one post, and as it appears that memories are short on this one, what I said above relates first and foremost to this post below, but also several others on this thread:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard. Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

This was at the time - and still is - dismissive of, and lacks empathy for, the women expressing concerns on this topic... hence what I said above: I wish you had put as much thought into having sympathy for the women who have concerns for their safety as you have into having sympathy for the people who are angry at them for that.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This was at the time - and still is - dismissive of, and lacks empathy for, the women expressing concerns on this topic... hence what I said above: I wish you had put as much thought into having sympathy for the women who have concerns for their safety as you have into having sympathy for the people who are angry at them for that.

And again, as you may have read afterwards, I said it was not aimed at WOMEN. I like repeating myself so it's fine: It was aimed at transphobic people. So hopefully that clicks in. Have a nice saturday

[Ammi]

...it’s not dismissive of one thing to consider another, it’s inclusive of...as has been said throughout not only this thread but in others, conversations are good to be had and to have those have those conversations...?...then seeing different viewpoints is essential also...I’m absolutely a feminist but being a feminist doesn’t mean that I don’t consider different layers of that in some way I stop being a feminist in considering from a view of transgender in this...because Remy put forward his own personal experience which directly related to a feeling that ‘trans abuse’ was quite rare and which is not his experience to be true, does not in any way suggest that he has no thought or less thought for females...as he’s said, he has no personal experience of women’s shelters/charities...so he’s offering the personal experiences he does have, which haven’t before been offered in the thread so are very welcome, obviously...

[Ammi]

...and tbf, TS...you picked out a recent post and directly commented on it, which completely manipulated what was actually said...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...and tbf, TS...you picked out a recent post and directly commented on it, which completely manipulated what was actually said...

I replied to the most recent comment because that's how discussions happen... I didn't things from weeks ago or other threads into it... the discussion is still about the conversations that have taken place in this thread?

[Ammi]

...anyways, as ‘empathy’ has been mentioned and we’ve had this conversation before, TS....I understand that you’ve had a complete turnaround in your views on this related subject and that’s completely fine, obviously that there are things in life that can cause us to have those u turns of mindsets, it’s good that we’re open to that...but because you’ve had a very firm mindset of ‘both sides’...(...I know we’ve had this conversation before...)...you’re in the privileged position of also having an understanding of a now differing view, which was once an aligning view...and yet you show very little, if any tolerance or understanding for a mindset you yourself once had not so long ago...that to me shows a lack of ‘empathy’ that I would have expected and hoped to have been, to at least understand...as Remy has said...have a good Saturday....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...anyways, as ‘empathy’ has been mentioned and we’ve had this conversation before, TS....I understand that you’ve had a complete turnaround in your views on this related subject and that’s completely fine, obviously that there are things in life that can cause us to have those u turns of mindsets, it’s good that we’re open to that...but because you’ve had a very firm mindset of ‘both sides’...(...I know we’ve had this conversation before...)...you’re in the privileged position of also having an understanding of a now differing view, which was once an aligning view...and yet you show very little, if any tolerance or understanding for a mindset you yourself once had not so long ago...that to me shows a lack of ‘empathy’ that I would have expected and hoped to have been, to at least understand...as Remy has said...have a good Saturday....

My mindset on it changed through robust conversation and having my ideas challenged and my lack of understanding put under a spotlight, Ammi... as anything does... they didn't change via people pussy-footing around the issue or by people avoiding challenging things I had to say about it with a shrug and an "each to their own" because of some misplaced fear of "hurting someone's feelings" or "avoiding discomfort". If I point out something wrong that I think I see in someone's argument and that person thinks I've gotten it totally wrong then there's no need for them to feel hurt or uncomfortable. If I say something that makes someone feel hurt or uncomfortable then they should have a think about why.

I understand that you don't like conflict but frankly it's not really your place to shut it down when it's actually still within the realms of completely acceptable debate; no one is being personally attacked here, ideas are being challenged.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

And again, as you may have read afterwards, I said it was not aimed at WOMEN. I like repeating myself so it's fine: It was aimed at transphobic people. So hopefully that clicks in. Have a nice saturday

It was dismissive of women who think there are concerns when it comes to clashes with women's rights - and in this post, you are still suggesting that those women are "transphobic people". Your opinion hasn't changed, you're saying the same now as you were on page one, and as such my opinion hasn't changed either: You have more concern for progressing trans rights than you do for considering the rights and safety of women that might be eroded in the process. That might be because "you don't think they will be" but that's not really relevant, as we're talking about sympathy, which doesn't require agreement. When you say "it wasn't aimed at women" you mean "...because it wasn't aimed at the many women who happen to agree with me on this topic". It was aimed squarely at the many women who disagree with you, it dismissed their concerns without even an attempt at discussion, it (frankly) with "relax and love it" told them that they should keep their mouths shut. This is classic misogyny whether you can see it or not - and if you can't - and you really do see yourself as appreciating both sides of this debate - all I can do is suggest you think about it.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It was dismissive of women who think there are concerns when it comes to clashes with women's rights - and in this post, you are still suggesting that those women are "transphobic people". Your opinion hasn't changed, you're saying the same now as you were on page one, and as such my opinion hasn't changed either: You have more concern for progressing trans rights than you do for considering the rights and safety of women that might be eroded in the process. That might be because "you don't think they will be" but that's not really relevant, as we're talking about sympathy, which doesn't require agreement. When you say "it wasn't aimed at women" you mean "...because it wasn't aimed at the many women who happen to agree with me on this topic". It was aimed squarely at the many women who disagree with you, it dismissed their concerns without even an attempt at discussion, it (frankly) with "relax and love it" told them that they should keep their mouths shut. This is classic misogyny whether you can see it or not - and if you can't - and you really do see yourself as appreciating both sides of this debate - all I can do is suggest you think about it.

Everybody can disagree with me, it's fine and that's debate and we love it.
It was aimed at transphobic people, and again, not towards not-transphobic people who have genuine concerns about the topic.
Point, blank and period. You were not in my head when I wrote it, you seem to know better what I meant and felt. It probably came out wrong, but I suppose you won't see any differently. If you don't trust me, then it is life and so be it. Have a lovely saturday

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Everybody can disagree with me, it's fine and that's debate and we love it.
It was aimed at transphobic people, and again, not towards not-transphobic people who have genuine concerns about the topic.
Point, blank and period. You were not in my head when I wrote it, you seem to know better what I meant and felt. It probably came out wrong, but I suppose you won't see any differently. If you don't trust me, then it is life and so be it. Have a lovely saturday

But Remy... "Nobody is being transphobic - just relax and love it."

Maybe you can see it better flipped, I don't know.

Your post was aimed at people who you personally have decided are in your opinion transphobic, not an objective category of "transphobic people"... and not aimed at people who have concerns that you believe to be genuine, not an objective category of people with genuine concerns.

I think that's an important distinction to make and the root of the disagreement here, but other than that I'm sure we can leave it there.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But Remy... "Nobody is being transphobic - just relax and love it."

Maybe you can see it better flipped, I don't know.

Your post was aimed at people who you personally have decided are in your opinion transphobic, not an objective category of "transphobic people"... and not aimed at people who have concerns that you believe to be genuine, not an objective category of people with genuine concerns.

I think that's an important distinction to make and the root of the disagreement here, but other than that I'm sure we can leave it there.

The root of disagreement is that, again, I was not mentionning anybody specifically ON THIS GOD DAMN THREAD OR FORUM but it was somehow decided otherwise. How can that be any clearer? God damn it. You just do not accept any of my justification.

Transhobia is very clear with clear motives. All I said to transphobic people is: try to be more accepting and don't be threatened by transpeople.
Again, not at people are NOT transphobic and have genuine concerns about it like most lovely members on this forum.
You know what, next time I will keep my message of tolerance and loving each other to myself since it's a big problem. Can I just add that some people read this forum, member or not, and I thought it was cute to tell some of them who MIGHT be transphobic (in accordance to objective facts) that transpeople are not to be worried about and there's no reason to be fearful.

And also, just because I work with LGBT+ communities does not mean I'm insensitive to what women feel. I had very interesting conversations with Vicky last night and other people about surgeries, access to same sex places etc Trying to dig deeper into it. I guess that's all for nothing.

I have to go to the local shelter, have a lovely weekend everyone! And love each other