[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

It's such a moral dilemma.

The police refusing to attend are the ones who need looking into. The staff should not be abused, maybe just retrained because they were left with a really messed up situation.

It's difficult really because the truth is some of it is an element of "an art, not a skill"... some people are just naturally very good with people/good at talking people down and some aren't no matter how much training you give. Some training will always help of course... but it's often just down to a person's character. I had a staff member who was like an animal whisperer for people off their face. They'd bugger off home and come in apologising later when they'd have been mouthing off all day at someone else .

[Amy Jade]

Should staff members in an ice cream shop really be expected to deal with this this? I get bar staff maybe being better at handling drunks but not people who serve Mr whippy

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

Should staff members in an ice cream shop really be expected to deal with this this? I get bar staff maybe being better at handling drunks but not people who serve Mr whippy

Should they HAVE to, no, but sadly in most towns in the UK these days, it honestly is kind of expected. I know when I was in retail it was a particularly rough "brand" of retail, but my best friend used to manage a TK Maxx and he has some very similar war stories.

[Cherie]

Difficult one, but I think it shows the amount of training required to deal with the public, its all very well throwing open your doors but you need to have at least one person on duty who is trained to deal with difficult situations, and no matter how bad it got, this was not the way to deal with this lady, she could well sue now

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

Should staff members in an ice cream shop really be expected to deal with this this? I get bar staff maybe being better at handling drunks but not people who serve Mr whippy

Yes there should have been someone trained to deal with it, whether that be the owner or a member of staff

They are dealing with the public, yes it is a cutesy dessert bar and not a pub but the principals are the same, what if a homeless person went in and sat down, how would they deal with that?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Difficult one, but I think it shows the amount of training required to deal with the public, its all very well throwing open your doors but you need to have at least one person on duty who is trained to deal with difficult situations, and no matter how bad it got, this was not the way to deal with this lady, she could well sue now

A lot of places though you're lucky if they're staffing at appropriate numbers just for the retail work, let alone another full time staff member for security.

That said, a couple of years back we stayed in Tottenham on a vsit to London, and I was slightly gobsmacked to discover how much more standard it is in places like that. A guy in a stab vest on the door at Poundland. Two bouncers at KFC! You barely see security even in the supermarkets up here. Moreso in Glasgow etc. maybe but not out here in the sticks... usually one bored looking person sat at a little CCTV station, stopping people at the door because the cashier forgot to take the little sticker off a leg of lamb.

[Livia]

The man who pushed her over assaulted her, no matter what was said beforehand.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A lot of places though you're lucky if they're staffing at appropriate numbers just for the retail work, let alone another full time staff member for security.

That said, a couple of years back we stayed in Tottenham on a vsit to London, and I was slightly gobsmacked to discover how much more standard it is in places like that. A guy in a stab vest on the door at Poundland. Two bouncers at KFC! You barely see security even in the supermarkets up here. Moreso in Glasgow etc. maybe but not out here in the sticks... usually one bored looking person sat at a little CCTV station, stopping people at the door because the cashier forgot to take the little sticker off a leg of lamb.

I am not talking about bouncers, never seen them at food outlets in London at all, not sure what area you were staying in

I am talking about training for staff on how to deal with difficult situations the public are notoriously difficult drunk or sober

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

The man who pushed her over assaulted her, no matter what was said beforehand.

Exactly

[Strictly Jake]

Unfortunately I think I've seen this woman out and about before and on buses etc and if it's the woman I'm thinking of she has a reputation in Morecambe for being abusive. The fact she was shouting at 2 kids that were about 7 or 8 that were crying and at staff and the police said there was no way they could come the guy did what he had to.

It's a very interesting video and it also highlights how just seen a tiny part of a video gives people the wrong impression

This restaurant has just opened and I may visit it this weekend to find out a bit more but inexperience played a part here too

Also it's very funny that greased lightning is playing so loud when he's interviewing the man it's so distracting

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I am not talking about bouncers, never seen them at food outlets in London at all, not sure what area you were staying in

I am talking about training for staff on how to deal with difficult situations the public are notoriously difficult drunk or sober

The KFC in question was in a retail park type thing near an underground station, that's about as much as I can remember. There were security screens and two very large bouncers on the door in black coats . Maybe they'd had a recent incident or something, I dunno.

I did see some racial profiling in Poundland though! The guy in the door wasn't going to let a black kid (maybe age 10 or 11?) in until they realised he was with an adult... but they had just let two similarly-aged white kids in no problem .

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Strictly Jake

Unfortunately I think I've seen this woman out and about before and on buses etc and if it's the woman I'm thinking of she has a reputation in Morecambe for being abusive. The fact she was shouting at 2 kids that were about 7 or 8 that were crying and at staff and the police said there was no way they could come the guy did what he had to.

If that's the case then #1) This person (and the community itself if she's disruptive) is being MASSIVELY let down by mental health & social care services in the area, and #2) she will almost certainly be a "known person" to the local police so there's even less of an excuse for them not coming out.

I do feel bad for the guy who ended up cracking, although there's still no excuse and he shouldn't have done it ... it does seem like the biggest failings here are systemic and it should never have gotten to this point in the first place.

[Strictly Jake]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If that's the case then #1) This person (and the community itself if she's disruptive) is being MASSIVELY let down by mental health & social care services in the area, and #2) she will almost certainly be a "known person" to the local police so there's even less of an excuse for them not coming out.

I do feel bad for the guy who ended up cracking, although there's still no excuse and he shouldn't have done it ... it does seem like the biggest failings here are systemic and it should never have gotten to this point in the first place.

Seeing him being interviewed he isn't a bully. He knows he needed to handle things properly but when the police don't respond and there are young children in your restaurant crying then it's a hard situation. He said he tried to escort her out properly and you can see that. Dragging by her legs wasn't the right thing to do he admits that.

It's such a shame as it's a very popular place and something Morecambe needs as we are just full of pound shops and charity shops the town centre is awful and people just seeing this 20 second clip will prob lead to the place shutting down. To get the full story you understand it more and it was the wrong thing to do but can someone say what they would have done in that situation?

We are a small town where a lot of businesses get closed down very easily we are a ghost town so to say we should have bouncers on the doors it's not a nightclub it's a family run restaurant for families how awful would it look to get bouncers

I've worked as security for arenas before and as far as the guidance goes if there is a problem person you kindly explain to them they are causing a problem and to leave. If they don't go then you get extra staff to come and the police. There wasn't the extra staff and the police weren't coming so what other solution is there

Thankfully this doesn't seem to have gone mainstream and the girl who filmed the footage has a lot to answer for to for only posting a small bit

[parmnion]

You dont want someone ****ting on the next table as your spooning some chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream in ya mouth.

Should have hosed her down.

[Strictly Jake]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You dont want someone ****ting on the next table as your spooning some chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream in ya mouth.

Should have hosed her down.

She got her just desserts Parm

[Strictly Jake]

Someone was once trying to break into my house and I rang the police and was on hold for ages it kept putting me through to barrow which is like an hour from where I live it's across the bay and barrow police were telling me that I rang the wrong team me and my wife were in the locked toilet very scared(this was way before we had kids don't worry) and noone was responding. I eventually rand my dad and brother in law who chased the guy away. The police turned up after annoyed that there wasn't a job for them to do. This was Morecambe police. Maybe it's time The bay TV show showed what Morecambe police are really like....

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Strictly Jake

Seeing him being interviewed he isn't a bully. He knows he needed to handle things properly but when the police don't respond and there are young children in your restaurant crying then it's a hard situation. He said he tried to escort her out properly and you can see that. Dragging by her legs wasn't the right thing to do he admits that.

It's such a shame as it's a very popular place and something Morecambe needs as we are just full of pound shops and charity shops the town centre is awful and people just seeing this 20 second clip will prob lead to the place shutting down. To get the full story you understand it more and it was the wrong thing to do but can someone say what they would have done in that situation?

I mean, I did... you close the store to other customers, move behind the counter, stop interacting with them, and persist with trying to get the police to attend. If you stop giving interaction, they usually just leave within about 15 minutes or so.

We are a small town where a lot of businesses get closed down very easily we are a ghost town so to say we should have bouncers on the doors it's not a nightclub it's a family run restaurant for families how awful would it look to get bouncers

I've worked as security for arenas before and as far as the guidance goes if there is a problem person you kindly explain to them they are causing a problem and to leave. If they don't go then you get extra staff to come and the police. There wasn't the extra staff and the police weren't coming so what other solution is there.

The fact remains that you can't take physical action without a security license... that's why they exist in the first place. I would add to that that even IF you felt you absolutely had to (and that's a big "if") ... he didn't take her by the arm and calmly-but-firmly attempt to escort her out the door, he's lost his temper, he moves behind her and pushes her. That wouldn't be the right thig to do even if he was security staff; but then, he might not know that, because again, he isn't security staff and isn't trained in removing someone by force "properly".

As I said before though if the place is new then there may well be an element of inexperience involved, I'm speaking from a position of a decade of retail management in a "hard" retail environment (disgruntled gamblers are not a nice bunch). I started in that environment when I was 23 and will fully admit that the first few times I encountered "unusual circumstances" like these I absolutely **** my pants. It sadly takes some getting used to.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Strictly Jake

Someone was once trying to break into my house and I rang the police and was on hold for ages it kept putting me through to barrow which is like an hour from where I live it's across the bay and barrow police were telling me that I rang the wrong team me and my wife were in the locked toilet very scared(this was way before we had kids don't worry) and noone was responding. I eventually rand my dad and brother in law who chased the guy away. The police turned up after annoyed that there wasn't a job for them to do. This was Morecambe police. Maybe it's time The bay TV show showed what Morecambe police are really like....

Oh if someone is in YOUR HOME by all means dropkick them down the stairs, that's a very different scenario!

The police are lucky it ended well though. When I was about 11 there was an attempted robbery on my street and the dad of the house in question was stabbed and died . It was a "nice" area too, a HUGE shock for the street. Also, a late-teen from across the street was charged with GBH because he chased the perp down the street and hit him across the head with a golf club. He was cleared in court thankfully because of the circumstances (what with the GBH victim himself being up on a murder charge and all) but it does show some of the inherent risks of taking things into your own hands. He (technically) shouldn't have pursued and attacked the fleeing perpetrator.

[Strictly Jake]

Yep I agree with you TS. I think they should have apologised to the other customers and asked if they could leave and then come back for free next time. Just have the woman in there but the police wouldnt have come that night but I suppose if she is ignored she would have left eventually.

It's taught them and other businesses valuable lessons and hopefully they will be given appropriate training now.

I hope it doesn't affect the business

[Strictly Jake]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Oh if someone is in YOUR HOME by all means dropkick them down the stairs, that's a very different scenario!

The police are lucky it ended well though. When I was about 11 there was an attempted robbery on my street and the dad of the house in question was stabbed and died . It was a "nice" area too, a HUGE shock for the street. Also, a late-teen from across the street was charged with GBH because he chased the perp down the street and hit him across the head with a golf club. He was cleared in court thankfully because of the circumstances (what with the GBH victim himself being up on a murder charge and all) but it does show some of the inherent risks of taking things into your own hands. He (technically) shouldn't have pursued and attacked the fleeing perpetrator.

Yeah there was no way I was gonna be able to protect us though I'm a tiny and weak guy. Didn't know if the guy was violent etc so I locked us in the toilet. Prob not the best plan looking back

[Strictly Jake]

I do wonder had the police came would they have just done pretty much the same?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Strictly Jake

I do wonder had the police came would they have just done pretty much the same?

They'd have removed her & moved her on but it would be one officer on each side, by the shoulder (no risk of falling)... I've seen this maneuver more times than I care to count . They then basically can't do all that much other than order them not to back in (and I think can arrest if they then don't comply) and they try to move them on. In this case I think they could possibly have arrested because of the spitting being assault.

In general though they don't arrest and you'll see the same person wandering about town later the same day. A really unfortunate situation and really that's why I'd say the major failings here aren't even the police, if it's been going on with this person for a long time then there's a much more serious failure of local services further up the chain.

But then, of course, you can get into the politics of it and local services being woefully under-funded...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Strictly Jake

I do wonder had the police came would they have just done pretty much the same?

They would have used manual handling techniques, they wouldn't have pulled her out by the leg