[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Redway

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

[Zizu]

….

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

….

He’s answered that question already, has he not?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?

Not really.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Redway

Not really.

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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[user104658]

Originally Posted by Zizu

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No gender and sexuality are separate things. For example a lot of trans-male young girls are actually straight (biologically) or gay (if you think of them as boys).

I.e. They are biologically female, they identify as boys, but they're also attracted to boys.

It can get complicated I suppose.

Especially when you have two biologically male transwomen in a relationship with each other, identifying as lesbians. Which happens more often than you'd think.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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Maybe or maybe even emo or goth , I find it suspicious that there's been such a high rise in all this Gender stuff. But that's social media for you .

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

Exactly, Niamh. Any ‘fluidity’ thereof (which is just human nature and gender stereotypes are somewhat contradictory when you look at them through a historical lens - a prime example being pink being seen as a feminine colour since the 1930s/’40s, whereas before that it was considered quite masculine and females were the ones who were blue) is still ultimately based on the two biological sexes (which is the only certainty in all of it). You’re either biologically one or the other (unless you’re one of those genuinely rare intersexual people who were obviously born that way) but beyond that it’s a case of stereotypes being peddled as having anything other than maybe the slightest biological backing to them and that’s where it just all goes wrong. In 2023 we should be beyond all that.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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I think it's more of a recent trend for the Media to focus on the Trans community so much.

The Trans community has been out there in the world since I've been growing up anyway, and I'm going to guess that they were around before I was born.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Meanwhile in the real world, lots of young gay girls are going down the route of identifying as male, due to a combination of current social zeitgeist and complicated issues around patriarchal values and internalised misogyny.

Most of them grow out of it after a couple of years.

The bigger concern though is the lesbians being branded transphobic or bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women.