[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You have defended Hamas, and even basically expressed support for them, in this very thread so I think my framing was legitimate. And every statement acknowledging the horror of the attacks has always been followed by a 'but'.

You keep talking about what Israel has done as if there is no distinction between state and citizen which is the exact problem. Hamas don't make that distinction either hence they consider every Israeli a legitimate target including civilians and even including children. Can you show me a time when Israelis have carried an innocent woman's mutilated body through the streets to cheers and celebrations?

Or seen Israeli flags paraded though London and Jews cheering carnage

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Or seen Israeli flags paraded though London and Jews cheering carnage

Indeed, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it of course though

[Crimson Dynamo]

[arista]

Yes back in London
with the Hamas Flags.


Police now looking at it

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You have defended Hamas, and even basically expressed support for them, in this very thread so I think my framing was legitimate. And every statement acknowledging the horror of the attacks has always been followed by a 'but'.

You keep talking about what Israel has done as if there is no distinction between state and citizen which is the exact problem. Hamas don't make that distinction either hence they consider every Israeli a legitimate target including civilians and even including children. Can you show me a time when Israelis have carried an innocent woman's mutilated body through the streets to cheers and celebrations?

I have said the events are horrific, but I also understand that a country being occupied has a right to fight back against the subjugation they are forced to endure, and they have been so thoroughly trod upon, that they basically have no way to fight back on their own. I pointed out the 2018 march of silence they undertook, and no one gave a sh1t about them then. Desperation doesn't disappear. Absolutely zero acknowledgement for the true conditions in Palestine. The sanctions imposed on Palestine by Israel also fail to discern between citizens and the military, with the citizens being picked off the streets and tortured. I guess that's crickets though, right?

Then you tried to make it an anti-Semitism issue, which is the most cynical and appalling of your points.

Please explain the humane way you can fight back against an oppressor on your doorstep and in your country depriving you of the most basic of human rights, then we can talk.

[Crimson Dynamo]

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I have said the events are horrific, but I also understand that a country being occupied has a right to fight back against the subjugation they are forced to endure, and they have been so thoroughly trod upon, that they basically have no way to fight back on their own. I pointed out the 2018 march of silence they undertook, and no one gave a sh1t about them, then. Desperation doesn't disappear. Absolutely zero acknowledgement for the true conditions in Palestine. The sanctions imposed on Palestine by Israel also fail to discern between citizens and the military, with the citizens being picked off the streets and tortured. I guess that's crickets though, right?

Then you tried to make it an anti-Semitism issue, which is the most cynical and appalling of your points.

Please explain the humane way you can fight back against an oppressor on your doorstep and in your country depriving you of the most basic of human rights, then we can talk.

Hardly appalling, it's pretty intrinsically connected to this conflict. If those celebrating in London last night had seen a Jewish person walking past I've no doubt they'd crank up those celebrations an extra notch. Again it's because of the lack of distinction between state and citizen, apparently any Israeli is a legitimate target and an extension of that is a hostility to Jewish people worldwide. I'm not accusing you of that but Hamas are explicitly anti-Semitic as are many Islamists.

I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know the answer to the conflict but I know what it isn't. I also know that Hamas have been in control of Gaza for over a decade and have done nothing to advance the cause of peace. What they have done is oppressed their own citizens, ruled with an iron fist, used civilians as human shields, used rape as a weapon and killed innocents. Mostly while their leadership lives in luxury in Qatar by the way. The idea that Hamas care about human rights is laughable. These people are not your allies. I don't really know what it would take for some in the pro-Palestine movement to have their 'are we the bad guys' moment - apparently the rape, abduction and murder of innocent people isn't it.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Hardly appalling, it's pretty intrinsically connected to this conflict. If those celebrating in London last night had seen a Jewish person walking past I've no doubt they'd crank up those celebrations an extra notch. Again it's because of the lack of distinction between state and citizen, apparently any Israeli is a legitimate target and an extension of that is a hostility to Jewish people worldwide. I'm not accusing you of that but Hamas are explicitly anti-Semitic as are many Islamists.

I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know the answer to the conflict but I know what it isn't. I also know that Hamas have been in control of Gaza for over a decade and have done nothing to advance the cause of peace. What they have done is oppressed their own citizens, ruled with an iron fist, used civilians as human shields, used rape as a weapon and killed innocents. Mostly while their leadership lives in luxury in Qatar by the way. The idea that Hamas care about human rights is laughable. These people are not your allies. I don't really know what it would take for some in the pro-Palestine movement to have their 'are we the bad guys' moment - apparently the rape, abduction and murder of innocent people isn't it.

Feigning ignorance is not the avoidance of arrogance when it's paired with the insinuation that you do really know who the baddies are. It's nothing to do with allies, it's about the on-going genocide against the people of Palestine. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until the 2000's.

You're throwing in any kind of other sh1t you can think of to avoid talking about the apartheid regime - that's the issue, not what some folks are up to in London.

Rape as a weapon of war or in any circumstance is fcuking atrocious, but you're acting as though this is a new thing introduced yesterday, when it has been happening in silence against the Palestinians for decades. I even posted a vid of a former IDF soldier laughing about it, they've shown lynchings on live TV.

If 60 years of oppression and a further escalation over the last 2 decades doesn't make you really have a "are we the baddies moment," then it's a detachment from reality and willful ignorance at this point.

Just one point about Hamas - they have a right to fight back under international law. Their actions were terrible in a lot of instances during this attack, but they do actually provide welfare and charity to the people of Palestine. I know people don't want o hear that, and I'm not a Hamas cheerleader, but the truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

[arista]

Good on SkyNewsHD (now owned by NBC/Comcast)

Allowing the British Palestine Ambassador in London,
to speak live.

Slim far more balanced than the Poxy BBC

[Crimson Dynamo]

[arista]

Hamas used a Bulldozer to break through the Thick High Fence

Easy
on a Saturday HOLIDAY in Israel

Israel also used Bulldozer to break into
side wall of one of their Police Stations
so they could kill all the Hamas inside it.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Feigning ignorance is not the avoidance of arrogance when it's paired with the insinuation that you do really know who the baddies are. It's nothing to do with allies, it's about the on-going genocide against the people of Palestine. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until the 2000's.

You're throwing in any kind of other sh1t you can think of to avoid talking about the apartheid regime - that's the issue, not what some folks are up to in London.

Rape as a weapon of war or in any circumstance is fcuking atrocious, but you're acting as though this is a new thing introduced yesterday, when it has been happening in silence against the Palestinians for decades. I even posted a vid of a former IDF soldier laughing about it, they've shown lynchings on live TV.

If 60 years of oppression and a further escalation over the last 2 decades doesn't make you really have a "are we the baddies moment," then it's a detachment from reality and willful ignorance at this point.

Just one point about Hamas - they have a right to fight back under international law. Their actions were terrible in a lot of instances during this attack, but they do actually provide welfare and charity to the people of Palestine. I know people don't want o hear that, and I'm not a Hamas cheerleader, but the truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

I'm throwing in any kind of other ****? You're the one who, in response to women being raped and killed yesterday, posted a video of one Israeli soldier admitting to a rape happening 75 years ago? Okay fair enough, good on Hamas then!

I started my post by talking about the reaction in the West to these attacks so I'm not 'throwing it in', it was the main point of my post.

If you want to talk about genocide I think going house to house and shooting or abducting as many people as you can in an attempt to 'cleanse' the area is pretty genocidal. I think parading someone's body through the streets and celebrating her death because she was a different ethnicity is pretty genocidal. I think wanting the destruction of the only Jewish state (whose people have been discriminated against for a lot longer than 60 years) is pretty genocidal. I think lumping all Israelis together as legitimate targets to 'fight back' against is pretty genocidal.

[arista]

Yes Run in Gaza
Air Strikes are going to spread

[Liam-]

Where’s the moral outrage when Israel commits those things against the Palestinians every week? All that stuff is happening to them on a regular basis, to pretend like this is was an unprovoked attack and that Israel is the ultimate victim is just unequivocally dishonest, is it awful that people are dying? Yes absolutely, if Israel doesn’t want to be attacked, it should stop committing atrocities against the Palestinian people in the hopes of stealing more of their land and wiping them out as a population, Israel is the Russia of this war, Russia doesn’t get to play victim when Ukraine retaliates, neither does Israel

[arista]

[Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at
Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds
of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists
have 'ascended to martyrdom']


STARMER sort your Fring out

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...errorists.html

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Where’s the moral outrage when Israel commits those things against the Palestinians every week? All that stuff is happening to them on a regular basis, to pretend like this is was an unprovoked attack and that Israel is the ultimate victim is just unequivocally dishonest, is it awful that people are dying? Yes absolutely, if Israel doesn’t want to be attacked, it should stop committing atrocities against the Palestinian people in the hopes of stealing more of their land and wiping them out as a population, Israel is the Russia of this war, Russia doesn’t get to play victim when Ukraine retaliates, neither does Israel

Again apparently no distinction between Israel and citizens. 'Israel deserves it', 'Israel had this coming', 'Israel has done worse'.

We're talking about children, tourists, the elderly, noncombatants. Many victims of this attack are international citizens. There was zero distinction between military personnel and civilians in this attack. Hamas considered everyone to be a legitimate target whether they had any responsibility for what 'Israel' has done or not. Let's not make the same mistake.

[arista]

I would put this Front Page

Today at Liverpool Starmers Labour Fring HAMAS supporters

[bots]

For all of my lifetime ( 65 years ) every country that surrounds Israel has wanted to wipe the country and it's people out. No half measures, they want to wipe them out entirely.

Immediately prior to that (not way back in history) Hitler tried to exterminate Jewish people by murdering any he could find.

The people that have the cheek to to say .... those poor Palestinian people are very conveniently forgetting recent history, even re-writing it. Absolutely disgusting

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm throwing in any kind of other ****? You're the one who, in response to women being raped and killed yesterday, posted a video of one Israeli soldier admitting to a rape happening 75 years ago? Okay fair enough, good on Hamas then!

I started my post by talking about the reaction in the West to these attacks so I'm not 'throwing it in', it was the main point of my post.

If you want to talk about genocide I think going house to house and shooting or abducting as many people as you can in an attempt to 'cleanse' the area is pretty genocidal. I think parading someone's body through the streets and celebrating her death because she was a different ethnicity is pretty genocidal. I think wanting the destruction of the only Jewish state (whose people have been discriminated against for a lot longer than 60 years) is pretty genocidal. I think lumping all Israelis together as legitimate targets to 'fight back' against is pretty genocidal.

None of this started yesterday, and that's what you are pretending to have no interest in. Again for the people at the back, dragging civilians into the streets is abhorrent, as was the murder of older Jews at a bus stop, as is the rape that has been happening, but it's not in a vacuum, and you just continually fail to acknowledge that fact.

So rape that happened 75 years ago doesn't count? Or does it provide the basis for how the IDF have been treating these people for decades upon decades. You nearly got there with the 75 years ago comment. That wasn't the last time it happened, and anyone with a half semi-curious brain would know that. Again, everything I've posted about Israel is widely available infomation to anyone else. It's not some hidden conspiracy.

Everything you are just now finding out about what happened yesterday has been happening against them, and this pretense that "oh, none of us know what has happened before" is just not true. You keep avoiding that point. Maybe have a look into it before you reply again to see if I've told any untruths.

Appealing to the historical abuses of Jews does not give the current ideological Zionist state a pass. If you want to have the conversation about how horrifically they have been treated through history; from the false claims of deicide and blood libel through the middle ages, to the horrors of Nazi Germany, I will have that discussion, but that has nothing to do with what the Israeli state has wrought upon the people of Palestine for the last 75 Years, Nothing other than an attempt to shut down discussion, and is pretty pathetic, actually.


You're talking about an oppressed people as though they have the power to commit genocide, and in no other context would a people fighting against an occupying force be attributed that power by observers. You only have to look at the words of those in the Israeli government to see what the intentions towards the Palestinian people are.

[Liam-]

The holocaust doesn’t give Israel the right to commit awful human rights violations against a whole population of people

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

None of this started yesterday, and that's what you are pretending to have no interest in. Again for the people at the back, dragging civilians into the streets is abhorrent, as was the murder of older Jews at a bus stop, as is the rape that has been happening, but it's not in a vacuum, and you just continually fail to acknowledge that fact.

So rape that happened 75 years ago doesn't count? Or does it provide the basis for how the IDF have been treating these people for decades upon decades. You nearly got there with the 75 years ago comment. That wasn't the last time it happened, and anyone with a half semi-curious brain would know that. Again, everything I've posted about Israel is widely available infomation to anyone else. It's not some hidden conspiracy.

Everything you are just now finding out about what happened yesterday has been happening against them, and this pretense that "oh, none of us know what has happened before" is just not true. You keep avoiding that point. Maybe have a look into it before you reply again to see if I've told any untruths.

Appealing to the historical abuses of Jews does not give the current ideological Zionist state a pass. If you want to have the conversation about how horrifically they have been treated through history; from the false claims of deicide and blood libel through the middle ages, to the horrors of Nazi Germany, I will have that discussion, but that has nothing to do with what the Israeli state has wrought upon the people of Palestine for the last 75 Years, Nothing other than an attempt to shut down discussion, and is pretty pathetic, actually.


You're talking about an oppressed people as though they have the power to commit genocide, and in no other context would a people fighting against an occupying force be attributed that power by observers. You only have to look at the words of those in the Israeli government to see what the intentions towards the Palestinian people are.

Just because they don't currently have the means to carry out genocide doesn't mean they can't be genocidal in ideology and carry out actions that aspire to that. And indeed if the balance of powers amongst the West and the Islamic nations was different then genocide against Israel could be a very real possibility.

Look I respect that you feel strongly about this issue and I know you've been talking about it for a long time. The historical (and present) abuses of Jews are why I think Israel's existence is so important. I'm aware that many ills have been carried out by the Israeli authorities but I cannot see this attack yesterday as anything like a legitimate response. It commits almost every war crime in the book. Normally when a side commits war crimes in a conflict they at least try and cover it up. Yesterday it was openly celebrated and boasted about that and that's why the international community are so shocked by it

[Stu]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The people that have the cheek to to say .... those poor Palestinian people are very conveniently forgetting recent history, even re-writing it. Absolutely disgusting

What on earth does this even mean? It's genuinely baffling and completely dehumanising.

It's possible for more than one ethnic group to have it bad. It's not 'cheeky' to provide contextualisation and visibility over another ethnic group's wholesale and legitimate suffering.

This is the kind of bilge that feeds into legitimate anti-semite tossers.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Stu

What on earth does this even mean? It's genuinely baffling and completely dehumanising.

It's possible for more than one ethnic group to have it bad. It's not 'cheeky' to provide contextualisation and visibility over another ethnic group's wholesale and legitimate suffering.

This is the kind of bilge that feeds into legitimate anti-semite tossers.

you need to take your blinkers off. It makes perfect sense to those not brainwashed

[Stu]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you need to take your blinkers off. It makes perfect sense to those not brainwashed

Okay cool, good argument.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Just because they don't currently have the means to carry out genocide doesn't mean they can't be genocidal in ideology and carry out actions that aspire to that. And indeed if the balance of powers amongst the West and the Islamic nations was different then genocide against Israel could be a very real possibility.

Look I respect that you feel strongly about this issue and I know you've been talking about it for a long time. The historical (and present) abuses of Jews are why I think Israel's existence is so important. I'm aware that many ills have been carried out by the Israeli authorities but I cannot see this attack yesterday as anything like a legitimate response. It commits almost every war crime in the book. Normally when a side commits war crimes in a conflict they at least try and cover it up. Yesterday it was openly celebrated and boasted about that and that's why the international community are so shocked by it

Fcuking hell, dude. Anyone can be genocidal if that is the weak definition we want to use. Israel is a nuclear state with the most modern military technology available. Palestine has been bombed into the middle ages. It is not realistic in anyway to have fear for the Israeli state, and using it as a shield, and as I previously stated, is amongst the weakest possible points you could raise. it just is.

What is a legitimate response? They tried walking, and this is what happened, and comfortable people that are so outraged by yesterday, had absolutely nothing to say about these attacks that have been happening daily.

Unless you have an understanding of the last 75 years, then you really have no idea what an appropriate response is.