[Mystic Mock]

The Porn industry could definitely do with cleaning up it's act behind the scenes (as could many industries tbh,) but I am with Slim that Porn isn't that much different from other industries that have a lot of criminal activity behind the scenes.

Plus, Porn is one of the last industries where attractive women still exist.

I'm joking on the last part (to an extent) but it does to me feel like Porn is getting scapegoated in the same way that GTA used to get back in the day, when a child would commit a murder and it would turn out that the kid would be a fan of GTA.

[Quantum Boy]

I'm going to leave this one alone because it just winds me up too much honestly.

I accept that people have their vices, and if accepting it for what it is and continuing to engage with and consume pornography is on balance something anyone wants to accept as a reasonable trade-off to keep doing something they enjoy, I can actually accept that for what it is. No one is without their vices, anyone who claims to be is lying.

However... to ignore the facts and argue that it's not an issue and not harmful, when it has been shown, indisputably, time and time again, to be an industry (both professional and amateur) that causes both direct and indirect harm, in order to continue to enjoy it with a guilt-free conscience, is something else entirely.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

The active role that porn plays into the objectification of women - all women, not just women within the industry - in subtle and fundamental ways is specifically what makes this different from pretty much any other example you can offer. There is a MASSIVE difference between product borne of exploitation and harm, and a product that inherently displays exploitation by it's nature and is in itself harmful.

The "it happened in the past before the Internet" argument is more or less moot; pornography alongside the exploitation and sexual objectification of women is as old as civilisation, there is no "before". And the fact that it's always been present doesn't mean that it should be accepted as inevitable.

But hey nothing sexier than Sky high rates of suicide and addiction and absolutely shocking examples of incontinence and irreversible prolapse caused by the porn industry enjoy your wank.

I don't agree that the procurement of lithium or diamonds is inherently less exploitative. Both industries known for primarily using children, along with the sweatshops, but hey enjoy your Nikes. My point was that we're all hypocrites to some degree when it comes to our peccadillos, it's just that you're pretending that you aren't.

It isn't moot. It's moot in your opinion, and reality isn't acceptance, it's reality. The fact it's evolutionary in it's nature proves that it isn't anything to do with porn, and I think the best anyone can ever do is to concentrate on personal morals, and to ensure we pass those on to the next generations of our families. Blaming porn does more to provide a free pass than anything I've written, and I don't think any decent person finds it acceptable, but it's ok to be acknowledge what is true at the same time.

[Quantum Boy]

Again (though I really am going to leave this after reiterating) the issue is in not accepting that pornography is both individually harmful to the women in the industry and societally harmful in the product that results from the industry. You might not agree with the second part, but I have to put that down to willfully not actually looking into the industry or the effects of pornography consumption. It's not guesswork it's just, as you say, what is true.

Are children exploited and harmed in sweatshops, yes. Are people in fact exploited by all industry, yes. But (generally speaking, though there will he exceptions) no one is then further harmed by the product created. You cannot say the same about pornography. The evidence is vast. It is societally harmful. The objectification of women is societally harmful and directly leads to individual harm. Would it "happen anyway"? Sadly, yes. Does porn contribute to it happening more, and some of what happens. I'm sorry but the inconvenient FACT is that yes, it does. To others not involved in the industry. It is different.

[Ammi]

…it’s interesting that females watch porn as well and I’m sure that males are also subject to exploitation in that industry because it’s such a highly exploitative industry…so far as violent acts are concerned, it does tend to be more male on female and rape is primarily an act of violence…/…an act of control and power…

….hmmmmm, just looking back at the phrase of ‘internet porn’ being used…I/we obviously don’t know that any type of exposure to porn is a factor here…and equally, any child who is part of committing such an awful act as this, could themselves also have experienced violence and abuse themselves…but just staying on track and focusing on that phrase/descriptive…it is a relevant thing ….because since the internet began and up until now/these present times…not just porn, but many violent things and acts are filmed …we could say that victims of violence and violations become part part of ‘storylines’ for some people that are drawn to that violent content…?….I mean, I know it’s a what if and a whatabout etc…but what if that rape of that poor girl was filmed with intent to put onto the internet for others to watch…?…and that does happen, doesn’t it….so then we have to look at the impact of another child in watching it, if they did gain access…?….and so it goes on…multiple/gang rape seems to be something we hear about more and more and yes, they’re absolutely acts of violence and control…but is there also a factor of an intention to put on the internet for others to watch this awful act…it’s all quite terrifying to think…

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…it’s interesting that females watch porn as well and I’m sure that males are also subject to exploitation in that industry because it’s such a highly exploitative industry…so far as violent acts are concerned, it does tend to be more male on female and rape is primarily an act of violence…/…an act of control and power…

….hmmmmm, just looking back at the phrase of ‘internet porn’ being used…I/we obviously don’t know that any type of exposure to porn is a factor here…and equally, any child who is part of committing such an awful act as this, could themselves also have experienced violence and abuse themselves…but just staying on track and focusing on that phrase/descriptive…it is a relevant thing ….because since the internet began and up until now/these present times…not just porn, but many violent things and acts are filmed …we could say that victims of violence and violations become part part of ‘storylines’ for some people that are drawn to that violent content…?….I mean, I know it’s a what if and a whatabout etc…but what if that rape of that poor girl was filmed with intent to put onto the internet for others to watch…?…and that does happen, doesn’t it….so then we have to look at the impact of another child in watching it, if they did gain access…?….and so it goes on…multiple/gang rape seems to be something we hear about more and more and yes, they’re absolutely acts of violence and control…but is there also a factor of an intention to put on the internet for others to watch this awful act…it’s all quite terrifying to think…

the likelihood of it being filmed is very high, so many involved is also a factor in it being filmed, the article doesn't mention gang rape thankfully but the trauma along with this going online is just too hard to contemplate

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I'm going to leave this one alone because it just winds me up too much honestly.

I accept that people have their vices, and if accepting it for what it is and continuing to engage with and consume pornography is on balance something anyone wants to accept as a reasonable trade-off to keep doing something they enjoy, I can actually accept that for what it is. No one is without their vices, anyone who claims to be is lying.

However... to ignore the facts and argue that it's not an issue and not harmful, when it has been shown, indisputably, time and time again, to be an industry (both professional and amateur) that causes both direct and indirect harm, in order to continue to enjoy it with a guilt-free conscience, is something else entirely.

Porn has it's problems behind the scenes, I don't think that anyone is denying that.

It's just to me personally, I don't see how an entertainment product (which is what Porn is intended to be) turns normal children into rapists? To me that already tells me that these children were already broken, and Porn possibly gave them a method to act it out on this poor girl.

But my belief is that if it weren't Porn or Andrew Tate (whichever one that it's likely to be) then I think that they would've committed another criminal offense instead.

Damaged kids is always a sad scenario imo, but I would be looking at family members, Teachers, or Social Media Influencers maybe possibly teaching these kids dangerous ideology, and then they've taken it to the victim.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the likelihood of it being filmed is very high, so many involved is also a factor in it being filmed, the article doesn't mention gang rape thankfully but the trauma along with this going online is just too hard to contemplate

…I guess that one of the things that I’m trying to say is that what comes under the umbrella of ‘porn’ isn’t something that’s remained static over time because most things do evolve, don’t they…and ‘internet porn’ has kind of become and is becoming even more…a different beast, I feel…not that long ago for instance, ‘revenge porn’ wouldn’t be something that any of us had even heard the phrase…and yet it’s become a commonplace term…because so much is filmed with the intention of ‘sharing’….its not only the impact on those young impressionables being exposed to it, either….its also that it’s yet another layer of horrendous that a victim may have to cope with…and with the internet, it’s that phrase that we’ve all heard…’once something is out there, it’s out there…’…and these things can and have caused victims to take their own lives ….

…and yeah, with the reality of what appears to have come about with eight very young people…/children all ‘binding together’ in like mind to commit this horrendous, violent act…there is also very much a thought that this could have all been filmed and in itself become a very disturbing ‘internet porn’ …

[Swan]

So sad for the girl. My heart goes out to her.

This porn debate, and does it make men more violent towards women is such a complex subject. It's slightly reminiscent of the 80's BBFC/Whitehouse/Video Nasty debate - Does sexual violence on screen "inspire", usually young men, to commit rape, violent sexual assaults against women (and men)? I lean on the side of "no, on the whole, i don't think is does" but it's a matter of opinion. I certainly don't think film and video games inspire people to commit violent crimes, and unforgivable crimes like rape. But then, even at a young age we know films, TV, games, are acted/faked. But then so much of this porn is real, or at least presented as real.

I do tend to agree with Slim more on this subject though. I feel like when these horrendous things happen we try and seek out answers, because such awful acts are so hard to justify. I understand that. When the poor little James Bulger murder happened we blamed films. When some kid in the US got a gun and went on a shooting spree we blamed video games. When Columbine happened we blamed Marilyn Manson. These things happened all pre mainstream internet. And many more similar acts happened before internet was even a word in the dictionary. These kind of things unfortunately happen, always have, and sadly always will. I feel it's natural to look for justification, but we also need to accept some people are just evil. And some people are very mentally ill with little to no control over their actions.

Blaming media isn't the way forward.

[Kazanne]

i do think that some media gives some ideas they would not have thought of if they hadn't seen it.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

i do think that some media gives some ideas they would not have thought of if they hadn't seen it.

A minuscule percentage maybe. But look at what alcohol does to people every single weekend. They're under the influence of alcohol and do things, silly, or sometimes more serious things they wouldn't dream of doing in their everyday regular lives.

Perhaps these boys had had a drink before they did this? That should be a question asked too. You know why it isn't though? Because most people who use media like films they're not interested in, music they're not interested in, tv they're not interested in, games they're not interested in as something to blame for these kind of things is because they.....Have no interest in them, and don't get pleasure from the those things, so sod it, that's to blame, ban it!!

Blame a bottle of gin on a violent crime, and watch the same people usually ban happy on stuff they don't care for, jump on the defence.

[arista]

This is terrible
and Not on TV News?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

This is terrible
and Not on TV News?

Its just a another raped girl I guess ....?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

This is terrible
and Not on TV News?

one wonders why.....?

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Porn has it's problems behind the scenes, I don't think that anyone is denying that.

It's just to me personally, I don't see how an entertainment product (which is what Porn is intended to be) turns normal children into rapists? To me that already tells me that these children were already broken, and Porn possibly gave them a method to act it out on this poor girl.

But my belief is that if it weren't Porn or Andrew Tate (whichever one that it's likely to be) then I think that they would've committed another criminal offense instead.

Damaged kids is always a sad scenario imo, but I would be looking at family members, Teachers, or Social Media Influencers maybe possibly teaching these kids dangerous ideology, and then they've taken it to the victim.

Originally Posted by Swan

So sad for the girl. My heart goes out to her.

This porn debate, and does it make men more violent towards women is such a complex subject. It's slightly reminiscent of the 80's BBFC/Whitehouse/Video Nasty debate - Does sexual violence on screen "inspire", usually young men, to commit rape, violent sexual assaults against women (and men)? I lean on the side of "no, on the whole, i don't think is does" but it's a matter of opinion. I certainly don't think film and video games inspire people to commit violent crimes, and unforgivable crimes like rape. But then, even at a young age we know films, TV, games, are acted/faked. But then so much of this porn is real, or at least presented as real.

I do tend to agree with Slim more on this subject though. I feel like when these horrendous things happen we try and seek out answers, because such awful acts are so hard to justify. I understand that. When the poor little James Bulger murder happened we blamed films. When some kid in the US got a gun and went on a shooting spree we blamed video games. When Columbine happened we blamed Marilyn Manson. These things happened all pre mainstream internet. And many more similar acts happened before internet was even a word in the dictionary. These kind of things unfortunately happen, always have, and sadly always will. I feel it's natural to look for justification, but we also need to accept some people are just evil. And some people are very mentally ill with little to no control over their actions.

Blaming media isn't the way forward.

The difference is that unlike the usual media blaming that goes on, such as with movies, TV and video games, this is not guesswork nor is it "blame culture" bluster.

The effect of pornograohy on male attitudes towards women and girls and the objectification of women and commoditisation of sex has been studied, extensively, and the negative effects have been shown to be huge and real. It's also been studied and extensively proven that the objectification of women and commoditisation of sex increases the risk of sexual assault and rape.

All I'm really seeing is people who don't like the facts because they want to continue to enjoy the porn.

And like I said before, if it's just that it's an acceptable trade-off for you, in order to to continue enjoying something that you enjoy then that's up to you - slim is correct, few things in this world come at zero moral cost.

But pretending that porn doesn't contribute to rape culture, sexual assault and other sexual violence is purely and simply lying to yourself. You're imagining that the majority of rapes are carried out by creepy predators attacking strangers on darkened nights. That's not the case. The majority of sexual violence is perpetrated by friends, boyfriends, workmates, and other close associates. Sexual violence within relationships is through the roof. Porn consumption is a major contributing factor. It just undebatably is... The work has been done, the results are in.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Totally agree with the above

[arista]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its just a another raped girl I guess ....?

I think it's the General Election News
blocking so much

[UserSince2005]

I want to know the ethnicities involved

[Livia]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

I want to know the ethnicities involved

A good but so far unanswered question.

[MTVN]

Interesting debate so far. Agree with SB's comments although it took me a long time to come round to that view. For most of my life I've viewed porn as essentially harmless and a choice that should not be judged or scrutinised. That's also how it's generally been presented in a lot of media too - it amazes me now that there was a whole Friends episode just based on them having porn on all day every day because they'd accidentally got the channel for free. But that was before access to porn became so widespread and all the issues (that are inherent in the industry) multiplied massively. The trouble is there's been no corresponding increase in awareness of the problems with porn and porn addiction

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Interesting debate so far. Agree with SB's comments although it took me a long time to come round to that view. For most of my life I've viewed porn as essentially harmless and a choice that should not be judged or scrutinised. That's also how it's generally been presented in a lot of media too - it amazes me now that there was a whole Friends episode just based on them having porn on all day every day because they'd accidentally got the channel for free. But that was before access to porn became so widespread and all the issues (that are inherent in the industry) multiplied massively. The trouble is there's been no corresponding increase in awareness of the problems with porn and porn addiction

I should probably concede that part too I guess - I'm not outright judging anyone for watching porn, I will freely admit that I watched plenty of it through most of my younger life, from age 14 onwards. But once you see it for what it is you really can't unsee it. Bleak.

[Cherie]

If adults want to watch porn that is entirely up to them, who hasn't watched it? my issue is that it is so freely available to kids and how it screws some to think that is the gold standard ...

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Cherie

If adults want to watch porn that is entirely up to them, who hasn't watched it? my issue is that it is so freely available to kids and how it screws some to think that is the gold standard ...

It is up to them but it's neither a healthy choice for them or societally imo (to grow the industry). A bit like smoking. Adults are also susceptible to being screwed up by porn

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

i do think that some media gives some ideas they would not have thought of if they hadn't seen it.

I agree with you Kazanne that media can give these disturbed people a method into how to commit their crimes.

I feel where I'm going to diverge from SB's viewpoint, is that I do believe that these people were already mentally off, and were going to commit a heinous crime eventually anyway, it just would've been a different victim most likely being the biggest difference.
@Kazanne

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

The difference is that unlike the usual media blaming that goes on, such as with movies, TV and video games, this is not guesswork nor is it "blame culture" bluster.

The effect of pornograohy on male attitudes towards women and girls and the objectification of women and commoditisation of sex has been studied, extensively, and the negative effects have been shown to be huge and real. It's also been studied and extensively proven that the objectification of women and commoditisation of sex increases the risk of sexual assault and rape.

All I'm really seeing is people who don't like the facts because they want to continue to enjoy the porn.

And like I said before, if it's just that it's an acceptable trade-off for you, in order to to continue enjoying something that you enjoy then that's up to you - slim is correct, few things in this world come at zero moral cost.

But pretending that porn doesn't contribute to rape culture, sexual assault and other sexual violence is purely and simply lying to yourself. You're imagining that the majority of rapes are carried out by creepy predators attacking strangers on darkened nights. That's not the case. The majority of sexual violence is perpetrated by friends, boyfriends, workmates, and other close associates. Sexual violence within relationships is through the roof. Porn consumption is a major contributing factor. It just undebatably is... The work has been done, the results are in.

Again though, these people that are getting so Porn addicted in the first place, why? There's already something wrong in their life if they're taking everything that they're seeing in Porn as gospel, and basically develop parasocial relationships with the Pornstars in certain cases.

And honestly for me I don't care about Porn enough to defend it as a die hard fan of the industry, I just don't believe the studies that you're on about, because after all some of these studies will try to tell you that TV Shows and Movies will encourage violent behaviour.

Depending on who conducts these studies, the answer will be tailored to the main demographic that's following the study, and basically get told what they want to hear.

Like I remember Zizu a few weeks ago put up a link showing studies about how violence in Video Games increases anger in men, yet I've read other studies that have said that Video Games don't do anything like that.

In my view, if anyone is watching rape Porn, and thinks "oh that's a cool idea" then there's something already seriously wrong with the individual to begin with.

Like controversially, if a guy is willing to hear Andrew Tate out, he is already in a dark place.