[Oldmansteptoe!]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Christian country? LMAO!!!
Most of this country are atheiists!! HOw deluded are you thinking its a christian country. Please.

The majority of people in this country would say they are Christian, there is no room for all this other rubbish it leads to trouble, we need a government to sort this all out now, although I fear it's to late
And no, I am not a BNP supporter I despise them!

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You are missing the point! Its history and tradition are that of Christianity - which is the way most people want it to stay. In keeping with that - we have a culture and way of life we want to protect. Just as most other religions/cultures do - and that would apply to the Muslim religion more than most. They want to keep their identity and way of life - we want to keep ours. What is wrong with that. As they have chosen to live in our country - they should be prepared to adopt our way of life, within reason - not to expect us to constantly make allowances for them.

Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Oldmansteptoe!

The majority of people in this country would say they are Christian, there is no room for all this other rubbish it leads to trouble, we need a government to sort this all out now, although I fear it's to late
And no, I am not a BNP supporter I despise them!

This has nothing to do with BNP, its fair opinion and debate. But let me tell you something, you are wrong, if you think this country has any religious values whatsoever, unless you are blind.
There is no need for all this other rubbish, it leads to trouble???? Listen to yourself. Thats the kind of talk Staline and Hitler use to give.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.

Yes - but Christianity has moved with the times - the Muslim religion certainly hasn't - things like stoning women to dealth for adultery - is positively medieval. What would you like to do? Turn England into a Muslim country - turn it into another Afghanistan. This is England - with a history of Christianity - and that is how it is going to stay.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Are you kidding me? Do you not live in England? English culture is as far removed from religious culture, as any country I have ever seen. And you are kidding yourself if you dont know that.
And if you were to talk about Christian values, how does Burkha interfere with that, in any shape or form???

ANd once again, you are completely killing your argument about women rights, by bringing in christianity to defend it. I dont even want to go into that, but you know what Im saying.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere in the western world is far removed from religion these days, but still on paper Britain is a Christian country. Whether they practice or not, most people, the vast, vast majority, are Christians. It's a statistical fact.

The Burka may not interfere with Christian values directly, but it certainly interferes with the common values of decent, freedom loving, rational people the world over.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Yes - but Christianity has moved with the times - the Muslim religion certainly hasn't - things like stoning women to dealth for adultery - is positively medieval. What would you like to do? Turn England into a Muslim country - turn it into another Afghanistan. This is England - with a history of Christianity - and that is how it is going to stay.

OH please! DOnt give me that Bullshiit. MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever. YOu can cling on to that notion all you want, its not there. And its one of the reasons why we would even have such a debate, because no religion nowadays will condone intolerance.

As for the last point about turning england into a muslim country? Cmon, is that even worst answering? How silly can you get.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever.

Statistics disagree with you. That's not open to debate, by the way. Your simply wrong.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Stu

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere in the western world is far removed from religion these days, but still on paper Britain is a Christian country. Whether they practice or not, most people, the vast, vast majority, are Christians. It's a statistical fact.

The Burka may not interfere with Christian values directly, but it certainly interferes with the common values of decent, freedom loving, rational people the world over.

Ermm, no, its not everywhere in the western world, its mainly in Europe, and particularly in the UK. YOu may think that its the same all over the west but its not, trust me.
NO one is forced to wear the Burkha. And people try to bring all the reasons in the book in here, to deny the people who choose to wear it.
Common deceny? Some would argue common decency the other way around, but for me, it doesnt matter, how a person chooses to dress, thats their choice. And religion is also that, a choice.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Stu

Statistics disagree with you. That's not open to debate, by the way. Your simply wrong.

Statistics means that they were baptised christian. But in the real world, I know for a fact, most people dont believe in their religion. I am talking from personal experience, and I am sure most people have the same. They will agree with me, in another debate. BUt of course, they will disagree in this case, because its suits their point on this debate, knowing perfectly well, what the real truth is.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Statistics means that they were baptised christian. But in the real world, I know for a fact, most people dont believe in their religion. I am talking from personal experience, and I am sure most people have the same.
But they will use it when it suits them in a debate, knowing perfectly well, what the real truth is.

Well I agree with that, that is basically what I am saying, that they are Christians 'on paper' if you like, but it still means officially, like it or not, and trust me - I hate it, that this, and indeed my country, is a Christian country.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Stu

Well I agree with that, that is basically what I am saying, that they are Christians 'on paper' if you like, but it still means officially, like it or not, and trust me - I hate it, that this, and indeed my country, is a Christian country.

haha THE TRUTH

the truth my friends, will set you free. age will reveal all..

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

OH please! DOnt give me that Bullshiit. MOst British people have no religious affiliation whatsoever. YOu can cling on to that notion all you want, its not there. And its one of the reasons why we would even have such a debate, because no religion nowadays will condone intolerance.

As for the last point about turning england into a muslim country? Cmon, is that even worst answering? How silly can you get.

That is irrelevant! It is about the culture and way of life that stems from it. It is about our history and identity. We are not about to stand by and have it eroded by other religions and cultures. Muslims constantly demand 'special privileges' and 'concessions' according to their religious beliefs that often conflict with our way of life - despite living in England they expect us to adapt to them rather than them adapt to us.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That is irrelevant! It is about the culture and way of life that stems from it. It is about our history and identity. We are not about to stand by and have it eroded by other religions and cultures. Muslims constantly demand 'special privileges' and 'concessions' according to their religious beliefs that often conflict with our way of life - despite living in England they expect us to adapt to them rather than them adapt to us.

Okay what particular way of life, of todays Britain, stems from Christianity??? Please explain!

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Okay what particular way of life, of todays Britain, stems from Christianity??? Please explain!

You have a point here. It's not those evil Muslims that are eroding British Christian culture, it's Briton's themselves who are, quiet rightly, embracing a more agnostic and atheist approach to life.

[WOMBAI]

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.

Ermm, how does that come from christianity again??

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Many things. But speaking as a woman - freedom is the first thing that comes to mind. The freedom to basically do as I please - wear what I want, have a career, choose who I marry, have a good education - the list is endless. To have my own identity, to be valued as an equal and to make my own choices in life. I am not answerable to anyone - and that is the way I like it. If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.

I doubt it's really going to take hold as much as people are hyping it up to be. I know it's on the rise, but so is a complete disregard for any religious belief whatsoever. That's the odd thing about this decade. Fundamentalism and Atheism have both become huge things.

[Stu]

Now for the fun part...




* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."




Christianity. What a great moral bedrock for both men and women .

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

If we were to loose our culture and identity - that could change. It certainly would - if the Muslim religion ever took hold.

And thats my whole point. LIke Islam has any chance whatsoever in in taking over the UK. Apart from their personal ways, they have no influence on people who are not Muslim. And its ridiculous to think so.
If muslim people can maintain their culture, certainly non muslim can as well, since no one is forcing anyone.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Ermm, how does that come from christianity again??

In my view - Christianity has allowed us the freedoms to choose our own way in life. Something that could not have happened with the Muslim religion.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Stu

Now for the fun part...




* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."




Christianity. What a great moral bedrock for both men and women .

I was about to post something similar, but this is way more concise than I ever could.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

In my view - Christianity has allowed us the freedoms to choose our own way in life. Something that could not have happened with the Muslim religion.

NO! Its not christianity, thats you getting away from christianity. Dont even kid yourself. And thats my whole point about the delusion, people thinking somehow Islam has any chance to change anything. YOu are not following christianity, sorry! Thats why I said ealier, you killed your debate by bringing in christianity to defend your views.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

NO! Its not christianity, thats you getting away from christianity. Dont even kid yourself. And thats my whole point about the delusion, people thinking somehow Islam has any chance to change anything. YOu are not following christianity, sorry! Thats why I said ealier, you killed your debate by bringing in christianity to defend your views.

But I was able to do that because Christianity today is not a dictorial and controlling religion in the same way that the Muslim religion is. There is no punishment for not conforming. I made a choice. I repeat - the British culture has its own unique identity - and its roots come from Christianity.

Throughout history, Britain has been a very strong country, despite its size, and a lot of those strengths came from its strong Christian beliefs. Times have moved on - and although those beliefs are not practiced by as many - that is where our identity lies. You don't have to practice, or even believe, but those roots are still a part of you and where you come from.

Most Brits still value that - and don't want things to change.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You don't have to practice, or even believe, but those roots are still a part of you and where you come from.

Christianity is not relevant today, though. And that's fine by me. It's where we have come from, yeah, but what's a part of us that's suddenly going to be lost if the cross goes the way of the dodo?

Your also contradicting your own argument. Obviously things have in fact changed because Christianity and the law influenced by it used to be so much stricter back throughout history.

[Wildcat!]

OH I give up! When you cant even see your own contradictions, then youre a lost cause for me on a debate.