[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That is somewhat of a sweeping statement! Don't buy into comments that families without fathers are dysfunctional! Many fathers are dysfunctional! It is the type of upbringing that counts - and that is not necessarily related to the presence or not of a father figure! That is just an easy cop-out!

Actually, I think a lack of father figures is a huge part of the gang problems. Not only do they lack the strong disciplinary presence that a father brings but they also lack a potentially good role model. Of course, some fathers are bad role models. So are some Mothers. Especially weak Mothers.

Those first 7-8 years of a childs life are crucial. If you don't instill the basics(respect, manners, civility etc) into a child in those years then you will have a hell of a job trying to do it later on.

Many join gangs precisely because they come from broken homes and desperately need to belong. Gangs become their adopted family; they will literally die, kill or serve prison time for their new blood. So lack of Fathers is a very valid issue here.

What looks like a very male related issue(ie; gang violence) can be very much traced back to the choices females make. Like who fathers their children. So many females do not put enough thought into this and just go with their own selfish needs; I know of many females who are attracted to bad boy types and will deliberately get pregnant as a way of trapping them. Thinking it will tame them! Next thing we have another fatherless child. Then there's the needy women with low self esteem. They have children to fill their own emotional needs; don't care much about who the father is or whether he'll be there for the childs life.

It seems to be acceptable these days for women to have children without a father. Even using sperm banks. This is disastrous for society and we are certainly seeing the affects. Im not knocking mothers who become single through valid reasons. But many have just made very selfish choices.

[bbfan1991]

Another young life wasted poor guy and I feel for his family, glad these people will get their commeupance.

It's getting worse and worse this gang culture yet the press doesn't help with their stereotypical articles of young people in the UK that we're all like that.. these cowardly and thuggish gang members actually give us a bad name.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Actually, I think a lack of father figures is a huge part of the gang problems. Not only do they lack the strong disciplinary presence that a father brings but they also lack a potentially good role model. Of course, some fathers are bad role models. So are some Mothers. Especially weak Mothers.

Those first 7-8 years of a childs life are crucial. If you don't instill the basics(respect, manners, civility etc) into a child in those years then you will have a hell of a job trying to do it later on.

Many join gangs precisely because they come from broken homes and desperately need to belong. Gangs become their adopted family; they will literally die, kill or serve prison time for their new blood. So lack of Fathers is a very valid issue here.

What looks like a very male related issue(ie; gang violence) can be very much traced back to the choices females make. Like who fathers their children. So many females do not put enough thought into this and just go with their own selfish needs; I know of many females who are attracted to bad boy types and will deliberately get pregnant as a way of trapping them. Thinking it will tame them! Next thing we have another fatherless child. Then there's the needy women with low self esteem. They have children to fill their own emotional needs; don't care much about who the father is or whether he'll be there for the childs life.

It seems to be acceptable these days for women to have children without a father. Even using sperm banks. This is disastrous for society and we are certainly seeing the affects. Im not knocking mothers who become single through valid reasons. But many have just made very selfish choices.

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

There are plenty of good strong mothers who are quite capable of disciplining their children, and meeting their emotional needs - including boys! Many children are fatherless because of irresponisble fathers who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Many fathers are just too weak to cope with fatherhood - because they are too selfish and have never grown up properly! The women are nearly always the ones that face their responsibility - and rarely abandon their children the way many men do!

Of course, ideally, children should have two loving, responsible parents - but we don't, never have and never will live in an ideal world! In the past, men were rarely there for their children - their role was to bring in the money - the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

There are plenty of good strong mothers who are quite capable of disciplining their children - including boys! Many children are fatherless because of irresponisble fathers who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Many fathers are just too weak to cope with fatherhood - because they are too selfish and have never grown up properly! The women are nearly always the ones that face their responsibility - and rarely abandon their children the way many men do!

Of course, ideally, children should have two loving, responsible parents - but we don't, never have and never will live in an ideal world! In the past, men were rarely there for their children - their role was to bring in the money - the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

Whilst in a lot of cases the weak men arguement does hold true, there are also women who walk away from the kids and family home, often without any real reason. The father then is left to bring up the children. There are also cases where one parent dies. So in some cases it isnt about sidestepping responsibility.

But for the rest of your points, no disagreement. Good post.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

That sounds very much like a 'blame the mother' way of thinking! I hear no mention of the father's responsibility! It does take two!

the rest was mainly left to the mothers. Although things have improved in that respect, still all too many men run away from their responsibilities.

There are faults on both sides - but educating women and men into taking equal responsibility for the consequences of their actions - instead of blaming women for making poor choices - seems likely to be much more productive!

And men can only be trapped if they allow themselves to be! Any man/boy that has any sense and has sex (outside of a strong, loving relationship) should understand the need to use protection. Despite what the woman may say about the pill etc - he should take action to protect himself! Just common sense! Short of being raped - he has no right to whinge about being trapped.

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it after its birth.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

I think you miss the point! To excuse men from their responsibility because they don't like wearing a rubber and only think with their dick is the old, old, story and just doesn't wash! Men don't think straight when aroused - well if they expect to be taken seriously - then they better start doing so, hadn't they! If this is another consequence of getting drunk - they hey don't get drunk! Ffs take some responsibility! You just prove my point! That is not man thinking - it is very much boy thinking! Sorry, but true!

Men have their say at the time of conception - use it wisely - or shut up whinging!

Men also have responsiblity for how their children turn out - by not being there to ensure the child's emotional stability! You can make excuses all you like for men - they simply aren't good enough!

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Men have their say at the time of conception - use it wisely - or shut up whinging!

So do women!

Its your bodies. Take responsibility for it. INSIST he wears a condom or refuse to let him penetrate you. You know a damn sight more about pregnancy than men do. Men aren't the ones who will spend 9 months getting fat and throwing up.

If a woman decides she wants a baby by a guy she will get one even if she has to mount him when he's having a horny dream! I grew up in a house of females so I know just how manipulative they can be when it comes to men. Hell yes!

And STOP having babies by lousy, no good losers! Then maybe your child will actually grow up in a stable, loving, protective family. If not, they may go join a gang to find that. Which is my point.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

So do women!

Its your bodies. Take responsibility for it. INSIST he wears a condom or refuse to let him penetrate you. You know a damn sight more about pregnancy than men do. Men aren't the ones who will spend 9 months getting fat and throwing up.

If a woman decides she wants a baby by a guy she will get one even if she has to mount him when he's having a horny dream! I grew up in a house of females so I know just how manipulative they can be when it comes to men. Hell yes!

And STOP having babies by lousy, no good losers! Then maybe your child will actually grow up in a stable, loving, protective family. If not, they may go join a gang to find that. Which is my point.

Bull! More excuses! No-one forces you to have sex! If you do - just make sure you don't pass on your genes if you don't want to! Same applies to her - but just because she carries the baby - doesn't mean you can opt out of responsibility!

Boys (and that is true of those that use such excuses) have been using that excuse since time begun - but nowadays society is better informed and less accepting of such lame excuses!

If women need to make better choices - so do men - about where they put it and when - not to mention what with!

[hennessy]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Women choose the father of their children. Choose somebody who is likely to stick around and be a good father. Men do not like wearing rubbers so it will never ever be difficult for a woman to get a man to have sex with her bareback; truth is, men dont think straight when theyre horny and stiff. Cliched but true. Its women who carry the consequences so I cant imagine why you would let a man **** you without any contraception. Unless you actually want to get pregnant. Insist he rubbers up if not.

The choices a man has regards children pretty much end when he shoots his load. From that point on its all about what the woman wants. A man can make a drunken mistake but its the woman who then has the power to make him pay for that mistake. If they both agree it was a mistake then why should he then be forced to be a father when she has all the options? Having children is a womans prerogative so spare me the equal responsibility nonsense. It will only be equal when men have a 50% say in whether a woman carrys that child for 9 months and then what they do with it after its birth.

And if these gang members have only had a female parent then how can you blame men for how they turned out? You can only blame the parent that has been there. I agree that single mothers CAN raise decent children. But those who raise bad children deserve criticism for it. Like Ive said, THEY chose the father of that child in the first place so if he buggered off then you made a BAD CHOICE.

It only takes two to conceive a child. Actually, these days it only needs one.

OMG this
I know if I had to have a child having unprotected sex I would be on the pill and make sure that the man carried condoms and so would I.
At the moment my bestfriend has just had a child with a woman of 32 who has now with my friend's child 6 kids from 5 fathers.
She tried to trap them but they couldn't handle her needy personalty.
My friends lives with her and is happy but she is incredibly possessive.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by hennessy

OMG this
I know if I had to have a child having unprotected sex I would be on the pill and make sure that the man carried condoms and so would I.
At the moment my bestfriend has just had a child with a woman of 32 who has now with my friend's child 6 kids from 5 fathers.
She tried to trap them but they couldn't handle her needy personalty.
My friends lives with her and is happy but she is incredibly possessive.

Some guys will never change and always attempt to shift the blame! Of course any girl that doesn't protect herself is stupid - but exactly the same applies to the guys! Both DO have equal responsibility - however hard some boys will try to wriggle out of it!

As they say - if you do the crime - you do the time - simple as!