[Angus]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.

You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.

We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.

The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.

How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.

I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.

I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.

[arista]

MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.

Its is about a College using there Security Rights.

Sign Of The Times.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.

I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.

I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.

Dont expect to direct petty stereotypes at people and not recieve them in return. If you want instantly presume that I'm a "wooly minded" leftist or a male chauvinist and then label me so then I will do the same to you. If you choose to associate anyone who supports the right to wear the burqa as a wooly minded, PC-mad left-winger then I will associate those who find Islam destructive to our "culture" as a BNP supporter. I have shown no indication of my political affiliation, so dont presume to know or I'll do the same. And now I'm a "male, chauvinistic, sexist pig" right?

"Our way of life" does not dictate that a woman cannot wear a burqa, our way of life allows people to express their religion how they wish, some choose to express it through the burqa. They dont have that luxury in a lot of countries and we should be thankful that we live in somewhere that allows the freedom of choice.

Do you have evidence to back up you claim that most woman do not wear it out of their own free will, aside from anecdotal? And I'm talking about the UK here, I know full well how oppresive husbands are in Afghanistan. I remember seeing a burqa wearing woman on television defending her right to wear it. She stated that it was her personal choice, she considers it of huge importance to her religion, and in a free and tolerant country she should have the right to wear it, and to forbid her from doing so would be an infringement on her civil liberties.

I dont see why we are always compared to other countries. You might have had to respect their customs and culture elsewhere, but if you ask me it's commendable that more than one culture can thrive in the UK.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by arista

MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.

Its is about a College using there Security Rights.

Sign Of The Times.

Agreed, that was inappropiate in this thread but it was only after being presumed to be a "wooly minded liberal" that I decided to politically stereotype her as she did me.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by angus58

I lived in the Middle East for four years and I can assure you that good old fashioned intolerance is alive and well and always will be in a muslim country when it comes to adjusting THEIR ways to us westerners which, by the way, I had absolutely no problem with since I had CHOSEN to live in THEIR country. Thus I had to cover up and not wear short skirts, or display bare arms or a cleavage, and would be sweltering in 50 degree heat for fear of offending their sensibilities by a flash of bare flesh. It is called respect for the host culture, its laws and norms. We do more than enough in this country already to respect others' culture and it is not too much to ask that there should be some sort of compromise from those who come here. A hijab is more than acceptable in place of the burkha which, by the way, most arab women did NOT wear except in the more remote areas of Kuwait, Saudi and Bahrain that I lived and worked in. Most muslim women find the burkha as offensive as western women do, and unless you are female you might not get the significance of what the burkha actually is. It was explained to me that it is a visual sign of ownership and possession of the woman by a man.

Banning the veil has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious intolerance but everything to do with safety and security, as well as the liberation, respect and freedom of women. The veil is a symbol of FEMALE SUBJUGATION and is abhorrent and offensive not only to most western women but also to a lot of liberated and independent muslim women. It is a demeaning subjugation imposed by muslim men and is sexist and totally retroactive to gender equality. We live in a modern society where women have fought hard for equality, and the veil is a potent and virulent symbol of the oppression and "inferiority" of women.

Far from being an intolerant country, the UK bends over backwards to accommodate all cultures, but it is now being recognised (too late) that multiculturalism does not work when every culture keeps itself separate and refuses to integrate even minimally with the mainstream culture. No-one has yet satisfactorily explained how diametrically diverse cultures can coexist in peace and harmony without some common ground being found, and MUTUAL respect fostered. Banning the burkha is common sense in this day and age - why should one section of the community be exempt from abiding by the rules and regulations the rest of us must abide by?

I'm sick of men on this forum supporting the wearing of the burkha when it is so obvious that if the boot were on the other foot, men would never be subjected to such an indignity by women.

I note you do not address your support of other so called "cultural" norms, examples of which I gave in my previous post, but then again you couldn't really, could you?

As regards prosecuting the college for banning the burkha, I hope that those colleges that still allow the burkha are similarly prosecuted for failing to practise equality in the application of their regulations, and failure to assure the safety of their students by condoning the anonymity of the burkha so that no-one knows who the hell is coming in and out of the college, or for that matter taking the exams.

coming off a guy i completely agree with you.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.

You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.

We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.

The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.

And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!

You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!

[arista]

Liberals are Welcome on here
This is thread about a College that has used its
Security Rights.

[WOMBAI]

[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3821009]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

What are you on? knocking British culture of its perch? lol British culture is made up of multicultural influence too, its not just cricket and cream teas Wombai and also you seem to think that our culture is under threat from "others", its not. This is far from a middle eastern country, what just cos a few want to wear a burqua?? it never will be. Britain is built on tolerance and freedom of choice. By banning the burqa your going against all that is British

The thread is about a college banning the burka for reasons of security - and rightly so! Burkas DO pose a security risk in public places, including buses and trains! If you can't see that - then you are the one on something!

[Mystic Mock]

[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3821009]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

What are you on? knocking British culture of its perch? lol British culture is made up of multicultural influence too, its not just cricket and cream teas Wombai and also you seem to think that our culture is under threat from "others", its not. This is far from a middle eastern country, what just cos a few want to wear a burqua?? it never will be. Britain is built on tolerance and freedom of choice. By banning the burqa your going against all that is British

when i lived in aston 3 years ago there was a survey on how many asians,blacks and whites live in aston,and here are the results.

asians 50%
whites 28%
blacks 22%

are you still telling me british culture isnt being invaded?

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

The thread is about a college banning the burka for reasons of security - and rightly so! Burkas DO pose a security risk in public places, including buses and trains! If you can't see that - then you are the one on something!

I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?

I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?

I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.

Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?

I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?

I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.

Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.

Maybe you should read through some of the other posts before passing such comments and direct them to the correct person! Hardly any surprise you directed them at me though, is it!

I recommend you read the link before saying you don't see how the wearing of burkas can present a security risk! Might just give you a clue!

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?

I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?

I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.

Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.

no offence to muslims on here,but i never felt safe when i was in aston incase there was a terrorest living nearby,and i know its stupid to think like that but as astons population was 50% asians and i would say about 18% of them were muslims i was scared of going near them a little bit incase they were suicide bombers.

[Mystic Mock]

and a muslim couple that used to live next door to me had a husband that beat the crap of his wife and kids,and if he could do that to his wife and kids what could he do to strangers?

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Maybe you should read through some of the other posts before passing such comments and direct them to the correct person! Hardly any surprise you directed them at me though, is it!

I recommend you read the link before saying you don't see how the wearing of burkas can present a security risk! Might just give you a clue!

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/

Stop shouting at me.

And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Stop shouting at me.

And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?

well apart from america alot of muslims hate britain second.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Stop shouting at me.

And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?

No it doesn't - it gives several examples!

Any public place could be targeted - including colleges/uni's - if security is lax - they are most likely to go for easy targets - could be anything! Schools and colleges have been targeted by many nutters over the years - with many students killed, both here and abroad - there is no way you can say that terrorists wouldn't do so! They are hardly adverse to attacking innocent civilians!

National security aside - burkas pose a security risk in other ways in the education system! With a person's identity completely hidden - the system is laid wide open to potential abuse - cheating in exams, attendance in lectures etc - anyone could be under those things!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!

You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!

So we should breach civil liberties because of a minor terror threat? I keep repeating myself, less than 2000 people wear one, the threat of a burqa to national security is being blown compltely out of proportion.

I need to get over myself? You are the one who thinks they have a right to tell someone what they can and cannot wear, you are the one who thinks it should be banned because you personally find it offensive.

Although I admit I went a bit far with the BNP comment, so I apologise to Angus for that. I just resented how she equated supporting the right to wear a burqa with being a wooly minded, chauvinist liberal. You know nothing of my political views so dont presume them for me please.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

well apart from america alot of muslims hate britain second.

Yes and we are the target of contempt and hatred from many muslims living in our country who are free to enjoy the freedoms they were denied in the countries from whence they came. Yet they wish to continue to adhere to the same oppressive cultural practises that are clearly out of place in a progressive and liberated society such as ours.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

I wouldn't bother Wombai. It's a complete waste of time trying to debate this issue with idiots like him. I can't even be arsed to respond to such a sexist bigot since he is clearly talking out of his backside. When he has maybe lived in a Muslim country for several years and interacted with the women in those countries he would understand the true meaning of oppression and being bullied into submission. Even then he would never really completely GET it since his experience would be completely different to that of a Western woman having to conform to their sexist culture.

So to sum up your opinion of me I'm a Communist, sexist, bigoted idiot whos talking out of his backside purely because I think a woman has a right to wear a burqa?

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

..we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts

You aren't pandering to them. They are using you for their own gains.

[James]

It would be best if posters avoid making remarks attacking other posters personally. Stick to the topic.

[Tom4784]

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

Usually the types you find in Bristol or Avebury, middle class kids wanting to be 'different'.

Not that that has anything to do with the topic, just felt like saying it

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

Talk about undermine your own heritage! Thankfully we don't all have such a negative attitude! Many of us are proud of our country and our roots! Britain does have its own culture and identity - and is entitled to keep it!

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So to sum up your opinion of me I'm a Communist, sexist, bigoted idiot whos talking out of his backside purely because I think a woman has a right to wear a burqa?

By the same token British women have the right not to have such a blatant representation of female oppression shoved in their faces on their own doorstep!

Angus is right - it is no coincidence that most supporting burkas are male - who clearly have no proper understanding of the subject, how could they! So now you are saying that the rights of Muslim women override the rights of British women!

Maybe some Muslim women do 'choose' to wear the burka - but how many really do and are saying they do because they are being pressurised by men or their culture to do so - or they have been so brainwashed, they actually believe it! It is nowhere near as clear-cut as some imply! People shouldn't take everything at face value - things aren't always what they seem!