[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by angus58

I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.

In the same news I see colleges are introducing state of the art face recognition technology to heighten security at colleges. How, pray tell, is that going to work with burkha wearing students???

Glad to see that a female muslim estate agent took her muslim boss to court because he insisted she wear a head scarf at work (his own wife and daughters are forced to wear burkhas). She won £13,567 payout for discrimination since he did not require this of non muslim workers. He also harrassed her by saying she had not been brought up properly and that she had been given "too much freedom" when she was growing up.

Seriously, why are we letting people with such sexist and medieval attitudes and beliefs about women continue to demean and subjugate women in ways that are unacceptable and actually illegal for the rest of us? Perhaps it is time for British women, of all races, to start lobbying parliament to challenge such reactionary, divisive and sexist practices, and the burkha is a good way to start since it will fulfil two important functions: A ban will promote women's rights, and will also enhance safety and security by removing the anonymity of this abhorrent garment.

this.

[joeysteele]

100% agree with angus58.

[dural]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Those links are just the Daily Mail article again, just on a different site

Come back to me when you have a credible source to back it up

Not related to the same thing just more news about how other countries are dealing with the situation.

http://www.iheu.org/ban-burqa-canadian-muslim-view

Makes for interesting reading about the Muslim view in Canada.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/it...e-anymore.html

And to suggest the Daily Mail would invent such an article is ridiculous.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by dural

It isn't just printed in the Daily Mail - hardly likely to have made it up are they.

http://www.educationnews.org/global/101031.html

http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/the...ols_where.html

I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.

This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by dural

Not related to the same thing just more news about how other countries are dealing with the situation.

http://www.iheu.org/ban-burqa-canadian-muslim-view

Makes for interesting reading about the Muslim view in Canada.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/it...e-anymore.html

And to suggest the Daily Mail would invent such an article is ridiculous.

I'm not necessarily saying they invented it, I'm just saying that if it appears nowhere else but the biased and discredited Daily Mail, I'm not particuarly inclined to accept it as fact.

Originally Posted by angus58

I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.

This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.

Yes, I get it, you're a misandrist and men have no clue about the world or society

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

The death warrant fatwas are reserved for "infidels" - after all they're not renowned for their tolerance and sense of humour about such things, that's for sure.

For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.

I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.

What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?

Originally Posted by angus58

I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.

I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.

Originally Posted by angus58

I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.

This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.

Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.

Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.

[dural]

Originally Posted by Shasown

For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.

I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.

What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?




I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.



Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.

Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.

The parents may have a choice - but I very much doubt the girls do.

Personally it is my experience that the politically correct are most often the ill-educated.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.

I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.

What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?




I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.



Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.

Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.

Seems it's you putting your own interpretation on what I've said. Who said all infidels are westerners? Not me. It is common knowledge that fatwahs are issued against any who dissent, ridicule or in any way challenge Islam, and as many are issued against muslims as westerners (Salman Rushdie). Nor did I claim to be any expert on Islam or muslims, all I said was that I had the misfortune, being a woman, to live in muslim countries for several years and hated and despised the way women are treated there. Naturally my opinions and attitudes have been shaped by what I personally experienced, saw and heard and by interacting and speaking with muslim women. Silly me, having the audacity to form opinions based on life experience.

As for rhetoric, you seem mighty fond of that yourself - but it doesn't bother me since this is a forum for DEBATE which of course involves a fair bit of rhetoric. I note a lot of YOUR posts are full of statistics etc lifted straight from wikipedia.

You appear to be crediting me with massive influence over people's thought processes if you are accusing me of "panic-mongering". Strangely enough, as a mere woman, I am still entitled to state my opinion and have no need to run it by any one first. I am flattered if you think my opinions carry sufficient weight to "panic-monger".

As regards the brainwashing of young girls in faith schools, no doubt you find that totally acceptable - whereas I do not, and guess what? Just cos your a man doesn't make YOUR opinion more valid than mine. As regards being voluntary fee paying schools, I think you'll find a lot of them get nice fat grants from the Government - that is if you care to do YOUR research. Irrespective of that, they are NOT entitled to teach in a way that is seditious to our culture and way of life, and clearly sexist subjugation of women by coercive brainwashing is unacceptable in any society except, it seems, if you're a muslim. The fact that a lot of us find the burkha an abhorrent sign of male domination of women doesn't seem to concern you, but then you're not female are you?

It is a FACT that sexual discrimination is ILLEGAL in this country, and I do not see why we should be expected to allow one section of society to flout the law and perpetuate the subjugation of women when it has been outlawed in this country for decades.

If you can't find the facts to back up YOUR rhetoric I suggest you return to Wikipedia for your next post since that is clearly where you get your greatest inspiration.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

Seems it's you putting your own interpretation on what I've said. Who said all infidels are westerners? Not me. It is common knowledge that fatwahs are issued against any who dissent, ridicule or in any way challenge Islam, and as many are issued against muslims as westerners (Salman Rushdie). Nor did I claim to be any expert on Islam or muslims, all I said was that I had the misfortune, being a woman, to live in muslim countries for several years and hated and despised the way women are treated there. Naturally my opinions and attitudes have been shaped by what I personally experienced, saw and heard and by interacting and speaking with muslim women. Silly me, having the audacity to form opinions based on life experience.

As for rhetoric, you seem mighty fond of that yourself - but it doesn't bother me since this is a forum for DEBATE which of course involves a fair bit of rhetoric. I note a lot of YOUR posts are full of statistics etc lifted straight from wikipedia.

You appear to be crediting me with massive influence over people's thought processes if you are accusing me of "panic-mongering". Strangely enough, as a mere woman, I am still entitled to state my opinion and have no need to run it by any one first. I am flattered if you think my opinions carry sufficient weight to "panic-monger".

As regards the brainwashing of young girls in faith schools, no doubt you find that totally acceptable - whereas I do not, and guess what? Just cos your a man doesn't make YOUR opinion more valid than mine. As regards being voluntary fee paying schools, I think you'll find a lot of them get nice fat grants from the Government - that is if you care to do YOUR research. Irrespective of that, they are NOT entitled to teach in a way that is seditious to our culture and way of life, and clearly sexist subjugation of women by coercive brainwashing is unacceptable in any society except, it seems, if you're a muslim. The fact that a lot of us find the burkha an abhorrent sign of male domination of women doesn't seem to concern you, but then you're not female are you?

It is a FACT that sexual discrimination is ILLEGAL in this country, and I do not see why we should be expected to allow one section of society to flout the law and perpetuate the subjugation of women when it has been outlawed in this country for decades.

If you can't find the facts to back up YOUR rhetoric I suggest you return to Wikipedia for your next post since that is clearly where you get your greatest inspiration.

Would you care to show me what parts of the post you quoted came from wikipedia?

Why have you brought Salman Rushdie into the debate?

As for the sexual discrimination of women that a lot of outsiders see occuring in Islam, yes it is there, and it will continue for a long time.

Think on this if you can, the sects that insist on the woman being wrapped up so no one other than family can see her, wont change their rules just because the law in the UK says she cant wear what they consider to be decent clothing.

So what will happen?

The males of the household may be rich and willing to pay the fines indefinately. Then again they may not, but the most probable outcome especially in the poorer families is the wife is confined to the house pretty much for life.

So yeah carry on telling us how you despise the burka, how you want it not to be worn. But have a thought for what the end result could be for some of the women and girls.

Or you create enclaves of, for example, Safali muslims who then end up feeling marginalised by UK society, breeds resentment, blah blah blah, terrorist recruitment etc. blah blah blah.

Education and encouragement are better than legislation and criminalisation.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by dural

The parents may have a choice - but I very much doubt the girls do.

Personally it is my experience that the politically correct are most often the ill-educated.

Wombai don't make multiple accounts, use your original one.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Wombai don't make multiple accounts, use your original one.

Owned.

Though I have to say, that one was a lot more convincing than most of her previous attempts at multiple accounts. You can usually tell by the '!'s, but she cut down on them this time.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Would you care to show me what parts of the post you quoted came from wikipedia?

Why have you brought Salman Rushdie into the debate?

As for the sexual discrimination of women that a lot of outsiders see occuring in Islam, yes it is there, and it will continue for a long time.

Think on this if you can, the sects that insist on the woman being wrapped up so no one other than family can see her, wont change their rules just because the law in the UK says she cant wear what they consider to be decent clothing.

So what will happen?

The males of the household may be rich and willing to pay the fines indefinately. Then again they may not, but the most probable outcome especially in the poorer families is the wife is confined to the house pretty much for life.

So yeah carry on telling us how you despise the burka, how you want it not to be worn. But have a thought for what the end result could be for some of the women and girls.

Or you create enclaves of, for example, Safali muslims who then end up feeling marginalised by UK society, breeds resentment, blah blah blah, terrorist recruitment etc. blah blah blah.

Education and encouragement are better than legislation and criminalisation.

My wikipedia reference was to highlight the fact that not everything posted by some people is based on opinions arrived at through personal experience and knowledge, but from merely reading about something and then regurgitating it as an opinion.

I cannot help but have the opinions I have on muslims and the women in particular, from the simple fact that for some years I was subjected to the sort of treatment they have to put up with, but without the benefit of having first being brainwashed to be able to accept it.

I brought Salman Rushdie (a muslim) into the debate because a Fatwah was issued against him when he published The Satanic Verses because of his disrespectful portrayal of Mohammed - and I was just pointing him out as an example of a muslim "infidel" who had a death warrant against him. He had to go into hiding for many years to avoid being executed by fanatics.

There's no gain without pain - women in the West fought long and hard to get the right to vote, the right to the same education that boys enjoyed, the right to the same wages as a man for doing the same job, to be able to own property without having a male guarantor, to become doctors, lawyers etc, etc. If Muslim women are ever to be set free of course it is not going to be a smooth ride - they are going to have to cover ground that western women had to cover a century or so ago, and it has taken us decades to achieve the freedoms and rights we now have. It won't happen overnight for muslim women, and it won't be straightforward or easy.

Encouraging the perpetuation of sex discrimination in faith schools, however, is NOT the answer. All that will happen, IMO, is that instead of living in a cohesive society where men and women have equal rights, we will have a divided society where muslim women are still living in the dark ages alongside their liberated counterparts. There has to be some common sense applied, and banning the burkha - a visual and blatant sign of female subjugation - is a first step. many Muslim women in their own countries are fighting for equality, but in their male dominated hierarchies they are making little headway and often face harsh punishments for daring to rebel. We should be helping muslim women in this country to fight for their freedom from oppression, not encouraging muslim men to keep them in metaphorical chains.

The burkha is NOT a religious requirement, NOR is it a major cultural one. Apart from the obvious connotations of female suppression, it is a fact that it is a major threat to safety and security in a society whose citizens are routinely closely monitored, observed, recorded and identified, and there should be NO exceptions.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Owned.

Though I have to say, that one was a lot more convincing than most of her previous attempts at multiple accounts. You can usually tell by the '!'s, but she cut down on them this time.

I went all detective tonight!

[MTVN]

I thought it was odd that a new member would join, come straight to these threads on the burqa and start spouting the same crap as Wombai. Whats wrong with her old account, and why does she always delete her older posts to keep her post count at 10,000? Thats something I've noticed recently

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Firstly Jack - do you think you could get something right for once in your life! This is the first time I have ever created a multiple account - maybe admin can confirm that for you - as it seems to matter to you so much!

So all that crap about it being more convincing this time only goes to show what a firtive imagination you have!

I have had problems with my computer disconnecting my link to TIBB somehow as Wombai, haven't a clue why - I couldn't find where I had written the password - so created another account. When this has happened before I told admin about it but on this occasion I didn't as I really was not that bothered about it!

Anyway I have now found my password and am using another computer account - just so I could let you know how wrong you are - yet again!

Woah chill love, ****ing hell

You did create some new accounts, I remember. Not in a 'trolling' sense but I think it's because you'd lost your password or something and couldn't contact admin for whatever reason. I remember you telling me yourself once someone sussed it was you. You made a few that day.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Woah chill love, ****ing hell

You did create some new accounts, I remember. Not in a 'trolling' sense but I think it's because you'd lost your password or something and couldn't contact admin for whatever reason. I remember you telling me yourself once someone sussed it was you. You made a few that day.

I created new accounts because of a computer problem, was quite open about it and immediately told admin about it so they could sort out the problem! That was hardly creating multiple accounts in the way you implied!

This was slightly different, but only as much as I didn't bother telling them. I could not access my wombai account automatically, couldn't find the password - so created a new one just to pass a few comments on Serious Debates. As I don't plan to stay around - it was hardly worth telling admin about it! I am not a computer expert and don't know why this happens - but it does! Happy now!

[Zippy]

Wombai rocks!

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Wombai rocks!

Hi Zips - good to hear from you!

They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Hi Zips - good to hear from you!

They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!

probably the same person that has just removed my signature picture! Seriously, its been up 24hrs and now ONE mod/admin suddenly decides it needs removing. Hfft

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Hi Zips - good to hear from you!

They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!

It's called a warning, because you're being overly aggressive with everyone when there's no need for it. Attempting to cause drama about it WILL lead to infractions however, You KNOW to talk to a mod if you disagree with any warnings or infractions so there's no excuse for it.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

My wikipedia reference was to highlight the fact that not everything posted by some people is based on opinions arrived at through personal experience and knowledge, but from merely reading about something and then regurgitating it as an opinion.

I cannot help but have the opinions I have on muslims and the women in particular, from the simple fact that for some years I was subjected to the sort of treatment they have to put up with, but without the benefit of having first being brainwashed to be able to accept it.

I brought Salman Rushdie (a muslim) into the debate because a Fatwah was issued against him when he published The Satanic Verses because of his disrespectful portrayal of Mohammed - and I was just pointing him out as an example of a muslim "infidel" who had a death warrant against him. He had to go into hiding for many years to avoid being executed by fanatics.

There's no gain without pain - women in the West fought long and hard to get the right to vote, the right to the same education that boys enjoyed, the right to the same wages as a man for doing the same job, to be able to own property without having a male guarantor, to become doctors, lawyers etc, etc. If Muslim women are ever to be set free of course it is not going to be a smooth ride - they are going to have to cover ground that western women had to cover a century or so ago, and it has taken us decades to achieve the freedoms and rights we now have. It won't happen overnight for muslim women, and it won't be straightforward or easy.

Encouraging the perpetuation of sex discrimination in faith schools, however, is NOT the answer. All that will happen, IMO, is that instead of living in a cohesive society where men and women have equal rights, we will have a divided society where muslim women are still living in the dark ages alongside their liberated counterparts. There has to be some common sense applied, and banning the burkha - a visual and blatant sign of female subjugation - is a first step. many Muslim women in their own countries are fighting for equality, but in their male dominated hierarchies they are making little headway and often face harsh punishments for daring to rebel. We should be helping muslim women in this country to fight for their freedom from oppression, not encouraging muslim men to keep them in metaphorical chains.

The burkha is NOT a religious requirement, NOR is it a major cultural one. Apart from the obvious connotations of female suppression, it is a fact that it is a major threat to safety and security in a society whose citizens are routinely closely monitored, observed, recorded and identified, and there should be NO exceptions.

Let me explain something about Islam. you either are a muslim or you are an infidel. Thats it.

If you are a muslim and you decide to turn to another religion or simply disown the religion, you dont suddenly become a non muslim or an infidel, you become apostate, in other words a major sinner.

Rushdie got a fatwa issued against him because in the eyes of some mullahs he sinned big time for a Muslim, not only was he apostate but also guilty of a major heresy referring to the supposed removed verses of the qur'an.

However if you read his book you will see the more controversial part of the book dealt with a religious leader in exile leading a revolution in his homeland from the safety of overseas and was taken by Khomeini to be highly critical of himself (well it was wasnt it?) so he issued the fatwa. Which is why a lot of Muslims ignored it.

While it's all very well having the noble intent to set Muslim women free, think carefully about that, you are talking about one of the major religions of the world, which as you have seen is very backward in its mindset towards women in some quarters.

Go head to head with a part of it and it will close ranks even though lots of schools of Islam actually agree there is no place for the burka in todays society, there are a couple who condone and one which requires its use. And thats the major stumbling block a small part of it sees it as a religious requirement. And a larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement.

Rightly or wrongly they dont see it as subjugation of the female rather following a guideline that their women should be modest. You can argue that their women are brainwashed into believing that view and in a way you are correct. A lot of the women are brainwashed into believing they are required. There are however some who willingly wear it.

Do you honestly think though that an outright ban will suddenly make those who believe in wearing the burka change their mind? Or will it simply mean that those women who wear it will either choose not to go out in public or even be forced by their men to stay indoors. Which in itself would be counter productive to your cause, because the so called free thinking liberated Western society would in fact be restricting religious and cultural freedom.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's called a warning, because you're being overly aggressive with everyone when there's no need for it. Attempting to cause drama about it WILL lead to infractions however, You KNOW to talk to a mod if you disagree with any warnings or infractions so there's no excuse for it.

What a nice healthy dose of exaggeration, hey! The only person I could be accused of being aggressive with is Jack - not entirely unprovoked as he was, yet again, throwing around false allegations! But, hey, that's ok, apparently!

Constant inconsistencies and double standards on this forum - so infract away - you know you want to!

I will be inconsolable! Sigh!

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I created new accounts because of a computer problem, was quite open about it and immediately told admin about it so they could sort out the problem! That was hardly creating multiple accounts in the way you implied!

This was slightly different, but only as much as I didn't bother telling them. I could not access my wombai account automatically, couldn't find the password - so created a new one just to pass a few comments on Serious Debates. As I don't plan to stay around - it was hardly worth telling admin about it! I am not a computer expert and don't know why this happens - but it does! Happy now!

Youve been saying that for weeks and deleting your old posts but yet you're still here. Not being a regular member or whatever you called it......

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Youve been saying that for weeks and deleting your old posts but yet you're still here. Not being a regular member or whatever you called it......

Only occasionally - and that is only because of a couple of discussions that interested me - nowhere near like I used to be! I would of thought the difference between occasional and regular was pretty self-explanatory!

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Only occasionally - and that is only because of a couple of discussions that interested me - nowhere near like I used to be! I would of thought the difference between occasional and regular was pretty self-explanatory!

No I just assumed seeing that you're online everyday that you were going nowhere, kind of self explanatory don't you think?