[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

Then "Britishness" should be characterised and defined by some sort of loyalty to the country in which one lives. If they want to enjoy the same rights and freedoms as the rest of us, the least they can do is display some loyalty and respect for this country, otherwise why the hell are they here? There's plenty of places in the world they can go if they don't like our culture, traditions and way of life.

That's one thing the yanks have got right - they don't pander to such nonsense, since all potential US citizens have to swear allegiance to the United States, which includes learning English (no costly interpreters for immigrants there).

But a lot of them are homegrown, they were born and raised here and are British whether we like it or not, so it's not really possible to just kick them out or anything like that.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But a lot of them are homegrown, they were born and raised here and are British whether we like it or not, so it's not really possible to just kick them out or anything like that.

I understand that, but what I am saying is that we need some sort of citizenship criteria which even the "homegrown brits" have to sign up to. There used to be an offence called "Treason" which seems to have died a death in the last couple of decades - it means betrayal of your country and used to carry the death penalty. These aresholes are traitors to this country and should be dealt with accordingly which, in today's politically correct climate, should merit at least a prison sentence.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by angus58

I understand that, but what I am saying is that we need some sort of citizenship criteria which even the "homegrown brits" have to sign up to. There used to be an offence called "Treason" which seems to have died a death in the last couple of decades - it means betrayal of your country and used to carry the death penalty. These aresholes are traitors to this country and should be dealt with accordingly which, in today's politically correct climate, should merit at least a prison sentence.

I think treason is a slightly outdated concept though, I dont think there should be a low forcing you to be loyal to the country you're born in. Although if a particular group is actually a threat to a country and its security then by all means actions should be taken, and Islam4UK were banned by the government.

[Big Sexy]

Originally Posted by angus58

I understand that, but what I am saying is that we need some sort of citizenship criteria which even the "homegrown brits" have to sign up to. There used to be an offence called "Treason" which seems to have died a death in the last couple of decades - it means betrayal of your country and used to carry the death penalty. These aresholes are traitors to this country and should be dealt with accordingly which, in today's politically correct climate, should merit at least a prison sentence.

Flawed thinking, though. The world is not that black and white a place. Think of all the great artists, comedians, musicians etc who have made a living from criticizing their countries and dressing them down [America being the predominant example]. What would you have done with them? I know in most cases these true patriots wanted simply to improve their country but does everyone really love the country they are in? I love my country but if I won the lottery I would be out of here. Shame on me?

I'm no PC nutter but freedom of speech is freedom of speech. No if's, no buts.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Big Sexy

Flawed thinking, though. The world is not that black and white a place. Think of all the great artists, comedians, musicians etc who have made a living from criticizing their countries and dressing them down [America being the predominant example]. What would you have done with them? I know in most cases these true patriots wanted simply to improve their country but does everyone really love the country they are in? I love my country but if I won the lottery I would be out of here. Shame on me?

I'm no PC nutter but freedom of speech is freedom of speech. No if's, no buts.

What utter drivel! If their so called "freedom of speech" includes inciting violence and hatred towards the very country they live in, then they are traitors, plain and simple and should be dealt with accordingly. It's about time some commonsense and logic were applied to these arseholes, instead of the usual politically correct twaddle that is trotted out by people living in their ivory towers.

[Big Sexy]

Originally Posted by angus58

What utter drivel! If their so called "freedom of speech" includes inciting violence and hatred towards the very country they live in, then they are traitors, plain and simple and should be dealt with accordingly. It's about time some commonsense and logic were applied to these arseholes, instead of the usual politically correct twaddle that is trotted out by people living in their ivory towers.

TWADDLE! OUTRAGE! RAPSCALIONS!

Nothing towards my point on the great artists, then? I know I'm clearly talking to a Daily Mail user message generation machine that thinks with it's balls but I'll try ...

Fair point on inciting violence which could lead to others harm. But are the EDF then and that whole hard headed patriotism culture in general responsible for inciting violence, knowingly or not, towards muslims? Where do you draw the line?

And that's the key isin't it. Where do you draw the line? Do you believe in free speech? You either do or you don't. Free speech is a very clear idea, IMO. And it's not one for PC morons living in 'ivory towers'. I also believe in the freedom for BNP jagoffs to have their little fantasy revolution marches.

You are going down a rocky, dark road denying the freedom of speech to a group of individuals. No matter how reprehensible they may be. Many ordinary people hate their countries too. Stop being so ****ing imperialistic about it.

Or screw it. We will censor them like many Arab countries would censor us. Oh the irony.

[Wonders how close Angus is to thinking I'm a muslim or a 'bleeding heart liberal'. I'm neither].

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Big Sexy

TWADDLE! OUTRAGE! RAPSCALIONS!

Nothing towards my point on the great artists, then? I know I'm clearly talking to a Daily Mail user message generation machine that thinks with it's balls but I'll try ...

Fair point on inciting violence which could lead to others harm. But are the EDF then and that whole hard headed patriotism culture in general responsible for inciting violence, knowingly or not, towards muslims? Where do you draw the line?

And that's the key isin't it. Where do you draw the line? Do you believe in free speech? You either do or you don't. Free speech is a very clear idea, IMO. And it's not one for PC morons living in 'ivory towers'. I also believe in the freedom for BNP jagoffs to have their little fantasy revolution marches.

You are going down a rocky, dark road denying the freedom of speech to a group of individuals. No matter how reprehensible they may be. Many ordinary people hate their countries too. Stop being so ****ing imperialistic about it.

Or screw it. We will censor them like many Arab countries would censor us. Oh the irony.

[Wonders how close Angus is to thinking I'm a muslim or a 'bleeding heart liberal'. I'm neither].

Can't be arsed to respond to such a ridiculous post - go look up the meanings of traitor and treason and you will understand that these arseholes are ABUSING the privilege and inciting violence against our armed forces and our country - but hey ho, so long as it satisfies the politically correct morons and "right on" brigade, that's okay I guess. Oh, and the only thing that offends me in your misinformed post is the accusation that I'm a Daily Mail reader - talk about stereotyping people, but then that's the M.O. of most intolerant bigots which is probably why you sympathise with this vermin

By the way, the ignore feature is great for sparing me from having to even bother reading such utter apologistic crap

[Big Sexy]

Originally Posted by angus58

Can't be arsed to respond to such a ridiculous post - go look up the meanings of traitor and treason and you will understand that these arseholes are ABUSING the privilege and inciting violence against our armed forces and our country - but hey ho, so long as it satisfies the politically correct morons and "right on" brigade, that's okay I guess. Oh, and the only thing that offends me in your misinformed post is the accusation that I'm a Daily Mail reader - talk about stereotyping people, but then that's the M.O. of most intolerant bigots which is probably why you sympathise with this vermin

Quote to me the piece of text which you feel best shows I sympathise with them. Try and stay away from the bits where I call them 'reprehensible'. Go on. Go for it.

While you are at it, do the same little exercise only this time for me insinuating that you read the Daily Mail. I never said that. I said you SOUND like a Daily Mail comment. A mere reflection on your 'I'm so angry, bro' language, rather than the views expressed therein. You are clearly making your assumptions about me in abundance too. Waving that stupid little PC flag and assuming I am sympathising with these people?

Are you high?

I don't sympathise with them. Not one bit. I just believe in freedom of speech. These days on planet earth most foward thinking countries have put treason to bed in favour of free speech. It comes with it's downsides - sure - but on the whole it's a pretty swell concept. You cannot destroy it with arguments that have no actual content or application in the real world. The word 'treason' is not an argument. Repeating it ad nauseum will not win you supporterz. My brother hates this country. He thinks it is a small minded, foul weathered ****hole that's on a mission to get stupider with each passing Saturday night TV slot. As soon as he finishes his degree he is leaving for Australia and never coming back.

But not before you can burn him at the stake apparently. You bitter old bastard.

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. But if you don't believe in that then that is cool too, bro.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

What utter drivel! If their so called "freedom of speech" includes inciting violence and hatred towards the very country they live in, then they are traitors, plain and simple and should be dealt with accordingly.

That may fly in the UK, but not in the US. People are allowed to say whatever they damn well please. However, in Britain, there is no protection of speech. So in essence, they don't have the right to say whatever they want.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Novo

Muslims need to speak out more about the Minority that are disgracing them.. they always seem far to quiet when things like this happen.. it would help if they were more vocal about these protesters

The larger more peaceful Muslim communities did condemn this demonstration however most of the media decided not to run that part of the story.

Originally Posted by angus58

They have no allegiance to this country, so they have forfeited their citizenship as far as I'm concerned. They can't have it both ways.

Yes they can and clearly do, such is the state of the British Statute books.

Originally Posted by angus58

What utter drivel! If their so called "freedom of speech" includes inciting violence and hatred towards the very country they live in, then they are traitors, plain and simple and should be dealt with accordingly. It's about time some commonsense and logic were applied to these arseholes, instead of the usual politically correct twaddle that is trotted out by people living in their ivory towers.

Originally Posted by letmein

That may fly in the UK, but not in the US. People are allowed to say whatever they damn well please. However, in Britain, there is no protection of speech. So in essence, they don't have the right to say whatever they want.

While it is true that freedom of speech isnt actually a direct part of a statutory instrument (that is enshrined in the law) it is referrred to in numerous laws within the laws of the UK. It is classed as an accepted right provided it doesnt offend or threaten.

They arent commiting treason, as thats defined as a serious act of betrayal, any lawyer would have them walking within minutes if they were charged with such. There slogans are in line with some of the Islamic schools teachings. In that allah will consign those to hell who make war on his believers. That would be their defence.

What they could be charged with is breach of the peace, in that they are carrying out acts which are likely to cause offense to a reasonable person.

However in charging them for such it would enable them to gain lots more publicity, which is probably the reason the police didnt arrest and charge them.

The major question to bear in mind is if non muslim members of the public held a little demonstration with placards that carried some slogan like "Taliban burn in hell" would the police protect them or would they charge them with a public order offence? If it is the latter then thats discriminatory.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shasown

The major question to bear in mind is if non muslim members of the public held a little demonstration with placards that carried some slogan like "Taliban burn in hell" would the police protect them or would they charge them with a public order offence? If it is the latter then thats discriminatory.

I am almost certain it would be the latter. No way would the police protect british people who did something like that. Would probably be classed as a racial hate crime

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am almost certain it would be the latter. No way would the police protect british people who did something like that. Would probably be classed as a racial hate crime

or can you imagine If British protesters did that in a muslim country............