[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Christ you sound just like the idiot Tripoli Loyalists. Sure I considered it, and immediately came to the conclusion that Gaddafi's claims were completely illogical. I suppose the whole uprising in Benghazi was just Al Qaeda and kids on drugs eh? The claims are utterly ridiculous and go against everything we know about the conflict

The only thing you know about the conflict is what the media has told you.
Look at the big picture.
Why are all the people who support Gaddafi and the nation itself idiots?
The so called uprising in Libya is by criminals and terrorists.

Why dont you just use your brain and remember back to Iraq. Blair and all the government were talking BS and they got found out. They are in the business of lies and corruption.
They know they can manipulate the public, because the public are stupid and naive and too trusting.

Watch how the news is presented more closely and you can see the BS and the agenda. Listen to it all with open mind.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

The only thing you know about the conflict is what the media has told you.
Look at the big picture.
Why are all the people who support Gaddafi and the nation itself idiots?
The so called uprising in Libya is by criminals and terrorists.

Why dont you just use your brain and remember back to Iraq. Blair and all the government were talking BS and they got found out. They are in the business of lies and corruption.
They know they can manipulate the public, because the public are stupid and naive and too trusting.

Watch how the news is presented more closely and you can see the BS and the agenda. Listen to it all with open mind.

Well without the media there would be no other way to get information about the conflict. In Benghazi where they showed footage of locals holding a community meeting to decide how best to secure a new future, I didnt see the prescence of Al Qaeda or drugged up kids there. The video footage and interviews speak for themselves. Tell me, where is this great source of information that you have access to which proves that Gaddafi is correct?

It's not hard to see why there are so many supporters of the man in Tripoli. It's incredibly ironic for you to criticise our media as biased and misleading without opening your eyes to the blindingly obvious fact that the only thing they can know of the conflict is what the Libyan government and state television and media is saying.

I do consider myself quite open minded, and I am a lot more sceptical than most people of the government and it's intentions but Gadaffi's, and your, claims are just completely illogical and ridiculous. Produce me one shred of evidence that the Libyan Revolutionaries are criminals and terrorists, maybe then I'll give your viewpoint some respect.

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well without the media there would be no other way to get information about the conflict. In Benghazi where they showed footage of locals holding a community meeting to decide how best to secure a new future, I didnt see the prescence of Al Qaeda or drugged up kids there. The video footage and interviews speak for themselves. Tell me, where is this great source of information that you have access to which proves that Gaddafi is correct?

It's not hard to see why there are so many supporters of the man in Tripoli. It's incredibly ironic for you to criticise our media as biased and misleading without opening your eyes to the blindingly obvious fact that the only thing they can know of the conflict is what the Libyan government and state television and media is saying.

I do consider myself quite open minded, and I am a lot more sceptical than most people of the government and it's intentions but Gadaffi's, and your, claims are just completely illogical and ridiculous. Produce me one shred of evidence that the Libyan Revolutionaries are criminals and terrorists, maybe then I'll give your viewpoint some respect.

Think about this

There are a group of people in Libya who want to overthrow the Government ok
Gaddafi and the government are fighting them to keep control
For some reason UK and US are supporting the rebels and want Gaddafi out.

Now think back to all the conflicts in Africa where it was exactly the same situation. Many many times rebels want to overthrow the government and take control and run the country themselves. Then few years later same thing happens again.

How many times during all these other conflicts do the US and UK get involved. Time after time they do not get involved. WHY?
Because they have no interest in the conflict, they dont give 2 sh**s.

Reason they support the rebels in Libya is because they do have an interest. They started it all. They have an agenda. They want Gaddafi gone because they want to control the whole region. They are creating an empire for themselves and in so doing they are creating a whole generation of people who hate us in the west.

It is a conflict between 2 groups, US and UK government have decided to back one side. Why? What reason do they have for backing the rebels? Why not support the government?

If a group of rebels wanted to take over the UK from within and our armed forces fought them. Who would you support? Who would the people in other countries support if their media showed our government as being the bad guys and the rebels as the good guys.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Think about this

There are a group of people in Libya who want to overthrow the Government ok
Gaddafi and the government are fighting them to keep control
For some reason UK and US are supporting the rebels and want Gaddafi out.

Now think back to all the conflicts in Africa where it was exactly the same situation. Many many times rebels want to overthrow the government and take control and run the country themselves. Then few years later same thing happens again.

How many times during all these other conflicts do the US and UK get involved. Time after time they do not get involved. WHY?
Because they have no interest in the conflict, they dont give 2 sh**s.

Reason they support the rebels in Libya is because they do have an interest. They started it all. They have an agenda. They want Gaddafi gone because they want to control the whole region. They are creating an empire for themselves and in so doing they are creating a whole generation of people who hate us in the west.

It is a conflict between 2 groups, US and UK government have decided to back one side. Why? What reason do they have for backing the rebels? Why not support the government?

If a group of rebels wanted to take over the UK from within and our armed forces fought them. Who would you support? Who would the people in other countries support if their media showed our government as being the bad guys and the rebels as the good guys.

But all of that is besides the point. I agree in that I dont think the Government really care. If they did they'd be doing more in places like Saudia, Iran and Bahrain, I was even saying this in the Libya thread in the news section. They are supporting the rebels because they cannot be seen to be supporting Gaddafi, I think that would be the bottom line. To a certain extent I think they might be concerned with the deaths and sympathise with the rebels but I'm not really sure they care that much.

That is irrelevant however, what is relevant here is that you have made a series of claims with nothing to back them up. Perhaps I could understand if you were just merely questioning the UK's actions and the portrayal of the situation but you didnt; you made accusations against the Rebels saying they were "criminals and terrorists" and that Gaddafi was right with no evidence behind it.

I think the only real reason you're supporting Gaddafi is because the West isnt, because you think the opposite view to the West must be the right view

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

The only thing you know about the conflict is what the media has told you.
Look at the big picture.
Why are all the people who support Gaddafi and the nation itself idiots?
The so called uprising in Libya is by criminals and terrorists.

Why dont you just use your brain and remember back to Iraq. Blair and all the government were talking BS and they got found out. They are in the business of lies and corruption.
They know they can manipulate the public, because the public are stupid and naive and too trusting.

Watch how the news is presented more closely and you can see the BS and the agenda. Listen to it all with open mind.

Do YOU actually have a furking scooby what you are talking about?

Is this the same Gaddafi who wouldnt give the UK the killers of PC Yvonne Fletcher?

The same one who refused to acknowledge he ordered the bombing of Pan Am 103.

Yet while denying responsibility for both crimes paid the Arab tithe of blood money for both outrages.

In other words repaying a blood debt without losing face by admitting responsibility, its an Arab mindset thing most people in the west dont understand. Its an admission of guilt and a reparation in the eyes of Allah without admitting guilt and losing face to the world.

Please dont think the Arab world actually support him, they understand the meaning of the blood tithe, its acknowledging the guilt and paying off without admitting guilt publicly.

Are you talking about the same Gaddafi who not only openly admitted supporting Islamic terrorist groups in Palestine, the Phillipines and across Africa most notably Sierra Leone and Liberia, the Provisional IRA in Ireland, European terrorists in France Spain and Germany, various terrorist groups in the United States and Latin America. But on numerous occassions openly admitted to also financing and training cells from those organisations?


Oh yes we should believe him because he really is an honest peace loving down to earth bloke being shafted by the West!

Not everything is a government or New World Order Conspiracy you know! Jeez H Kerrriste there is stupid and then there is stupid!

[Grimnir]

Why do US and UK keep saying Gaddafi must go.
Who are they to say who should be in charge of another country?
If they are concerned about civilians safety then why are they not saying things like we need to send in UN peacekeeping force to stop the fighting between armed forces and rebels.
No, they say Gaddafi must go, even if the fighting was to stop tonight, they would still say he has to go.
They want to get rid of the Libyan Government and replace it with one that is more to their liking.
After Iraq and Afghanistan they know that is not the right approach so they change their methods.
They stir up a hornets nest and let the country explode from within. Then they side with the rebels and say he must go.
UK and US keep claiming Gaddafi is brutalising his own people. Are they really in any position to take the moral high ground when after Iraq?
How many innocent civilians died as a result or Blair and Bush? How many British soldiers have died since the war started?
Can anyone actually remember the reason for war?
Saddam Hussein was a threat to the west? was he going to send nuclear bombs at us? Maybe when they say "us" they refer to Israel. But does anyone seriously think Hussein or anyone would attack Israel with nuclear weapons? seriously? The way Israel react to rocket attacks is often described as unjustified. Imagine how they would respond if some country attacked them with Nuclear weapon. Israel is a nuclear power.
So what was the actual reason for Iraq war? It was to take control of the country.
The west wants to take control of all arab countries. People might say good, better the west is in control, makes it safer for us from terrorists.
Really? I think it makes terrorist threat thousands of times more likely.
The west in power throughout arab world, dont think they will like that somehow, especially if thousands of civilians are killed with bombings that are set to happen.

After all this think of the actual reason why the west, UK and US etc, would want to control the Arab nations in the first place.

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Do YOU actually have a furking scooby what you are talking about?

Is this the same Gaddafi who wouldnt give the UK the killers of PC Yvonne Fletcher?

The same one who refused to acknowledge he ordered the bombing of Pan Am 103.

Yet while denying responsibility for both crimes paid the Arab tithe of blood money for both outrages.

In other words repaying a blood debt without losing face by admitting responsibility, its an Arab mindset thing most people in the west dont understand. Its an admission of guilt and a reparation in the eyes of Allah without admitting guilt and losing face to the world.

Please dont think the Arab world actually support him, they understand the meaning of the blood tithe, its acknowledging the guilt and paying off without admitting guilt publicly.

Are you talking about the same Gaddafi who not only openly admitted supporting Islamic terrorist groups in Palestine and the Phillipines, the Provisional IRA in Ireland, European terrorists in France Spain and Germany, various terrorist groups in the United States and Latin America. But on numerous occassions openly admitted to also financing and training cells from those organisations?


Oh yes we should believe him because he really is an honest peace loving down to earth bloke being shafted by the West!

Not everything is a government or New World Order Conspiracy you know! Jeez H Kerrriste there is stupid and then there is stupid!

Yet despite all those claims you make, he had become an ally of the US and UK. So was Mubarak. Funny that eh? Coincidentally Saddam Hussein was also ally to the west. Guess who else was also a friend to the west Osama Bin Laden. Strange how all these guys were once our allies isnt it.
When you say all those accusations at Gaddafi you sound like a politician trying to justify their actions.
Why did UK and US not want to get rid of Gaddafi before this "uprising"?
Why had they actually become friends and allies?

Basically what you are saying is look at all this Gaddafi has done, don't believe him, he is the boogeyman.
Well Blair and Government lied to British public to go war with Iraq.
Do you always believe what politicians tell you?

World War 3 could be coming soon, maybe only then will you believe and discover the truth.

I just notice your Avatar, made me chuckle. I am thinking you may already know the truth. Enlighten me

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Yet despite all those claims you make, he had become an ally of the US and UK. So was Mubarak. Funny that eh? Coincidentally Saddam Hussein was also ally to the west. Guess who else was also a friend to the west Osama Bin Laden. Strange how all these guys were once our allies isnt it.
When you say all those accusations at Gaddafi you sound like a politician trying to justify their actions.
Why did UK and US not want to get rid of Gaddafi before this "uprising"?
Why had they actually become friends and allies?

Basically what you are saying is look at all this Gaddafi has done, don't believe him, he is the boogeyman.
Well Blair and Government lied to British public to go war with Iraq.
Do you always believe what politicians tell you?

World War 3 could be coming soon, maybe only then will you believe and discover the truth.

PMSL you really have got the conspiracy bug havent you?

I am not trying to justify anybodies actions, however you seem to conveniently miss two facts, one the Arab League want him stopped from continuing his purge and two he either openly admitted the things I stated or carried out the actions I stated.

Yes politicians do tend to turn against their bedfellows when they fall out, but Gaddafi has been a pariah since the seventies. That doesnt mean to say he had become an ally, like all politicians they make agreements and treaties to further the aims of their own countries, like cheap oil. You would be one of the first complaining if the price of oil shot through the roof.

Yes politicians do tend to make allegiances with the strangest people. but then again those allegiances were deemed worthwhile at the time. Saddam was fighting Iran, (US and UK they no like Iran) Bin Laden was fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Thats why. Just in case you didnt know.

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

PMSL you really have got the conspiracy bug havent you?

I am not trying to justify anybodies actions, however you seem to conveniently miss two facts, one the Arab League want him stopped from continuing his purge and two he either openly admitted the things I stated or carried out the actions I stated.

Yes politicians do tend to turn against their bedfellows when they fall out, but Gaddafi has been a pariah since the seventies. That doesnt mean to say he had become an ally, like all politicians they make agreements and treaties to further the aims of their own countries, like cheap oil. You would be one of the first complaining if the price of oil shot through the roof.

Yes politicians do tend to make allegiances with the strangest people. but then again those allegiances were deemed worthwhile at the time. Saddam was fighting Iran, (US and UK they no like Iran) Bin Laden was fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Thats why. Just in case you didnt know.

So many times I see politicians get asked a difficult question.
Do you know they respond most often. They laugh and try to make light of it in an attempt to downplay the question and wriggle out of it.
Not that I am accusing you of being a politician, that would be such an insult

You should watch the video I posted a few days ago. I would love to see your response, that would make me laugh

You say I am talking conspiracy, but you are the one who keeps mentioning conspiracy. I am just saying the government are lying like they have done many times in the past.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

So many times I see politicians get asked a difficult question.
Do you know they respond most often. They laugh and try to make light of it in an attempt to downplay the question and wriggle out of it.
Not that I am accusing you of being a politician, that would be such an insult

You should watch the video I posted a few days ago. I would love to see your response, that would make me laugh

You say I am talking conspiracy, but you are the one who keeps mentioning conspiracy. I am just saying the government are lying like they have done many times in the past.

Ask a politician if they lied, they will probably say they didnt reveal the whole truth but they didnt lie. Such is the political animal.

There is an old joke "How do you know a politician is lying?" Answer: "his lips move" Its as true now as its always been.

I am not a politician, but I have been involved with the intelligence community in a past life and I know even they hide the real truth from their political masters and peers. Just about everyone has agendas, not all of them selfish, some are more altruistic than others.

[Grimnir]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Ask a politician if they lied, they will probably say they didnt reveal the whole truth but they didnt lie. Such is the political animal.

There is an old joke "How do you know a politician is lying?" Answer: "his lips move" Its as true now as its always been.

I am not a politician, but I have been involved with the intelligence community in a past life and I know even they hide the real truth from their political masters and peers. Just about everyone has agendas, not all of them selfish, some are more altruistic than others.

Remember during election debates and Clegg was like some X Factor contestant, everyone loved him and thought ooooooh this guy seems different.
I knew straight away he was nothing but a liar. He is such a bad liar.
If someone tries too hard to try and appear more honest and genuine than others, they a liar.

Another way to tell if a politician is a liar is if they all say the same thing. They are going by a script and it is not their own opinion.
What shall we tell the public?
Tell them ...........
Then they all say the same .......... lies lies lies