[Jords]

I very much doubt it will.

[Grimnir]

Star Trek is the future

None of this hocus pocus mumbo jumbo

[arista]

Originally Posted by Zee

I hope so, I think society functions better without religion.

You are Most Wise
Spunky Zee.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niall

Religion wasn't exactly the U.S.S.R's main problem. D;

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Why in hell are you talking about Communism?

[Niall]

Originally Posted by angus58

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That really wasn't the main problem the USSR faced though. I think the brutal ways the government had of dealing with political dissenters and the censorship of the media along with poor economic planning contributed a lot more to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Religion had a small part to play in the grand scheme of things.

And Communism is in no way a religion - its a political ideology. Also, Communism isn't actually meant to be restrictive, at heart its all about giving everyone an equal world with equal chances but like you said, power does corrupt.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Niall

That really wasn't the main problem the USSR faced though. I think the brutal ways the government had of dealing with political dissenters and the censorship of the media along with poor economic planning contributed a lot more to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Religion had a small part to play in the grand scheme of things.

And Communism is in no way a religion - its a political ideology. Also, Communism isn't actually meant to be restrictive, at heart its all about giving everyone an equal world with equal chances but like you said, power does corrupt.

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.

[letmein]

I still don't see how Communism pertains to this article about religion in any way, shape, or form.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by letmein

I still don't see how Communism pertains to this article about religion in any way, shape, or form.

Zee's post stating society would be better off without religion.
My post stating that was not found to be the case in Communist Russia (where religion was banned). I labelled communism a secular "religion".
Niall's post stating that Communism is a political ideology, not a religion.
My post stating that political ideology is now a component of many religions, in particular Islam. I go on to amplify the reasons why Communism - the antithesis of religion - does not deliver a better, freer, happier, more productive or EQUAL society.

Keep Up.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by Josy

If there was no religion someone would just come up with another way of controlling the masses.

Indeed I am afraid you are right. The majority of the human species are like sheep they want to follow and be led.......As such even if religion were to bocome out of fashion some other belief obsession would replace it........And of course the masses purly their own fault for hanging on to rubbish would still be controlled one way or another.....

Its easy to recognise the sheep instinct in humans.....Drugs is an example.....Addicts do as others do and not what normal intelligent free minded people would do....

[Stu]

That's like me saying people who abstain from drugs are just sheep who are following others who abstain from drugs.

Still it must be so great being you.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Grimnir

Star Trek is the future

None of this hocus pocus mumbo jumbo

Doubt it. Communism didn't work.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by angus58

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.

The amount parallels communism has with religion is scary. Don't forget the personality cults surrounding people like Stalin, Mao and Kim il-Sung (who even today after his death is worshipped like a god in North Korea). Plus the obligatory paranoia and distrust towards artists and intellectuals which governs every neanderthal philistine ideology.

Originally Posted by angus58

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.

I agree. Although I am pretty left of centre and think wealth should be distributed more fairly, the abolition of private property is a pipe dream and giving the state absolute control over the populace is a recipe for disaster. The communist experiment has already been attempted -in more than one country- and the results speak for themselves. Starvation on an unimaginable scale, millions dying in gulags, the destruction of people's history and heritage (another parallel with Christianity), humanity brought to the brink of nuclear war and today a secretive country on the Korean peninsula that literally resembles a real life Nineteen Eighty Four.

[keithafc]

I put Jedi Knight as that is what i am. A Jedi Knight.

I must say though, i don't buy into either the science view on the universe or the bible say on it. I just look at it all and go meh. Whats the point. Just enjoy your life.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

Zee's post stating society would be better off without religion.
My post stating that was not found to be the case in Communist Russia (where religion was banned). I labelled communism a secular "religion".
Niall's post stating that Communism is a political ideology, not a religion.
My post stating that political ideology is now a component of many religions, in particular Islam. I go on to amplify the reasons why Communism - the antithesis of religion - does not deliver a better, freer, happier, more productive or EQUAL society.

Keep Up.

It's not the same thing. The Soviets BANNED religion. No one talking about BANNING it. They're merely imagining a society that has no use for it.

Keep Up.

[Mr XcX]

[InOne]

Try telling the muzzies that

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by keithafc

I put Jedi Knight as that is what i am. A Jedi Knight.

I must say though, i don't buy into either the science view on the universe or the bible say on it. I just look at it all and go meh. Whats the point. Just enjoy your life.

Getting halfway through the game "Jedi Academy" on normal difficulty does not a Jedi Make, Padawan.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by letmein

It's not the same thing. The Soviets BANNED religion. No one talking about BANNING it. They're merely imagining a society that has no use for it.

Keep Up.

The point under discussion is that if there were no religion, some other ideology would take its place and it would not necessarily be for the better. In response to Zee's post I gave Russian Communism as an example of an ideological concept that could not and did not work in practice, and in fact delivered a far worse society than one where people were free to worship what the hell they wanted to.

The Soviets did NOT ban Religion, they never had the power to do that, they merely banned people from overtly worshipping and practising religion within Russia.

Now you need to get out of the slow lane.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

The point under discussion is that if there were no religion, some other ideology would take its place and it would not necessarily be for the better. In response to Zee's post I gave Russian Communism as an example of an ideological concept that could not and did not work in practice, and in fact delivered a far worse society than one where people were free to worship what the hell they wanted to.

The Soviets did NOT ban Religion, they never had the power to do that, they merely banned people from overtly worshipping and practising religion within Russia.

Now you need to get out of the slow lane.

That's banning, hon.

Also, just because you don't have religion, DOESN'T mean something else will take its place. That's preposterous. What do you think replaced it for people who aren't practicing it?

[keithafc]

I think something has taken over religion now.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by keithafc

I think something has taken over religion now.

what is it?

[letmein]

Big Brother?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by keithafc

I think something has taken over religion now.

Yes, it's called Materialism and the worship of "celebrities".

[Niall]

Originally Posted by angus58

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR. Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.