[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I try not to be too judgemental about the fact Clegg entered a Coalition with the Tories, because the LD's focused so heavily on attacking Brown's incumbent government in their election campaign, they would have been labelled hypocrites for choosing Labour instead. However, I am afraid this is a disaster of their own making otherwise. Whatver backroom deals they felt they had to make, nobody forced them to regurgitate virtually every piece of Tory spin, make a u-turn on Tuition Fees, support their slash and burn cuts agenda and VAT rise (remember they supposed to be Keynesians and Vince Cable in fact started out as an SDP member... how does somebody change their mind on this overnight?), and support the underhand privatisation of the NHS.

The Conservatives did NOT have a mandate to lead this country and were in no position to be calling the shots and so I can only surmise that the Libs did this for a little bit of short term stature and a few more seats in cabinet. This is the cancer of the modern politician. Long-term influence and public trust are completely secondary to immediate political gains.

Well said, you managed to say all I was thinking in far fewer words than I used. I must learn to say much in little.You are so right that the Conservatives were refused a mandate for their policies by the voters. Also with the policies they presented to voters at the election the Lib Dems then had no mandate from the voters to support the Conservatives implementing their main policies intact.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I try not to be too judgemental about the fact Clegg entered a Coalition with the Tories, because the LD's focused so heavily on attacking Brown's incumbent government in their election campaign, they would have been labelled hypocrites for choosing Labour instead. However, I am afraid this is a disaster of their own making otherwise. Whatver backroom deals they felt they had to make, nobody forced them to regurgitate virtually every piece of Tory spin, make a u-turn on Tuition Fees, support their slash and burn cuts agenda and VAT rise (remember they supposed to be Keynesians and Vince Cable in fact started out as an SDP member... how does somebody change their mind on this overnight?), and support the underhand privatisation of the NHS.

The Conservatives did NOT have a mandate to lead this country and were in no position to be calling the shots and so I can only surmise that the Libs did this for a little bit of short term stature and a few more seats in cabinet. This is the cancer of the modern politician. Long-term influence and public trust are completely secondary to immediate political gains.

Yeah it is ironic to suddenly see Clegg & co nodding along to everything that comes out of Cameron and Osborne's mouth. True, it's hypocritical, but not altogether surprising, any two parties in a coalition need to at least seem to be cooperating or seem to share common ground.

It's a case of pragmatism overriding principles I suppose. They are after all, by far the minority party in this Coalition and it's not really feasible to stick firmly to pre-election pledges, which were made on the basis that they would win a majority anyway. And even though the fees rise will go ahead, I think it's a lot more progressive than it would have been if it was a Tory majority. And they have achieved some of what they had aimed to; the personal tax allowance is on course to increase to £10,000 by the end of this government for one thing. Looks likely that they're going to start being more vocal in their opposition to some Conservative policies as well.

I can understand why some people may be dissapointed but I really do think they've tried to make the best out of the very difficult situation that they've found themselves in.

[joeysteele]

As a Student, I was bombarded with Lib Dem literature, party workers and also the Lib Dem candidate for my vote with the words ''If the Tory party gets an overall majority the severe cuts will start in the first year, that VAT would go up and tuition fees would be more than doubled'', they went on, ''the only way to stop the cuts and vat and tuition fees increases was to vote Lib Dem because Labour had no chance of winning the election and if the Tories got no overall majority the lib dems would ensure they voted against those 3 things in parliament''.

I asked would they be sure to do so and I was told not only do they say it but they promise me, that if I vote for them those things would not be possible to be done if they had the chance to vote them down. On those words and assurances they got mine and millions of others votes.

They won my vote on false pretences and I feel that is a total disgrace,I was one of many students wooed for my vote like that and then also pensioners and other voters got the same lies, the Lib Dems were never going to win an election and not one opinion poll from the first week of the campaign said any party was going to get an overall majority,but you never heard the words from the Lib Dems and Clegg that if they had to join a coalition they would then 'not' be able to vote against those measures.

Angry,you bet I am, this was my first vote, I trusted the Lib Dems, they stabbed me in the back once they got my vote, they deserve all that's coming to them at the ballot box next time around.They are simply liars and deceivers and have no integrity or credibility left.

[arista]

"They won my vote on false pretences "

Sure but 4 years of there future work will be the test.
Clegg knows that.

So you Conclude to much in this Early stage.

Times are Harder in Greece and other places.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"They won my vote on false pretences "

Sure but 4 years of there future work will be the test.
Clegg knows that.

So you Conclude to much in this Early stage.

Times are Harder in Greece and other places.

They will not be reversing the rise in tuition fees,they will not force VAT back down again and the cuts were done in the first year of the Parliament.

I wasn't looking 4 to 5 years ahead, they have done the damage now.

If I was trusted to do something important for someone now and I promised I would do it, but then I didn't, I wouldn't be worth trusting again.

You stick up for the lying Lib Dems and Clegg all you like, but for me the only honourable thing for them to do is hand back the votes to all those who voted for them and ask them now if they still want to vote for their current stance on policy or change those votes to other parties.
It's little surprise to me they wouldn't dare do that.

[Vicky.]

I'm glad I didnt bother to vote tbh. I would have felt like a right muppet...because my vote would have gone to clegg

Edit. Well was more a case of not being able to vote than not bothering...for some reason my slips went to my old address even though I changed my address with them

[arista]

"You stick up for the lying Lib Dems and Clegg"


Clegg is on SkyNews HD now

I am Conservative -LibDem
a year before that Election result
I was saying to a former bully boy member andyman
that a Conservative -LibDem power is better
than Stinking UnElected New Labour Brown.


I was right.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

As a Student, I was bombarded with Lib Dem literature, party workers and also the Lib Dem candidate for my vote with the words ''If the Tory party gets an overall majority the severe cuts will start in the first year, that VAT would go up and tuition fees would be more than doubled'', they went on, ''the only way to stop the cuts and vat and tuition fees increases was to vote Lib Dem because Labour had no chance of winning the election and if the Tories got no overall majority the lib dems would ensure they voted against those 3 things in parliament''.

I asked would they be sure to do so and I was told not only do they say it but they promise me, that if I vote for them those things would not be possible to be done if they had the chance to vote them down. On those words and assurances they got mine and millions of others votes.

They won my vote on false pretences and I feel that is a total disgrace,I was one of many students wooed for my vote like that and then also pensioners and other voters got the same lies, the Lib Dems were never going to win an election and not one opinion poll from the first week of the campaign said any party was going to get an overall majority,but you never heard the words from the Lib Dems and Clegg that if they had to join a coalition they would then 'not' be able to vote against those measures.

Angry,you bet I am, this was my first vote, I trusted the Lib Dems, they stabbed me in the back once they got my vote, they deserve all that's coming to them at the ballot box next time around.They are simply liars and deceivers and have no integrity or credibility left.

Well understand your bitterness. Especially on your first vote.....Your judgment is not at fault. Sadly what you will see as you go through life is that all polititions from all parties are liars and toe rags....

I nearly voted lib at the general for the first time in my voting life (now aged 70). I too am glad I did not. My main venom is aimed at the Tories. First 25 years of my voting life went to the Tories. However i just happened to join the civil service when Thatcher was elected (with my help I voted for the scum bag).

It was then in the civil service with access to information that I learned what a bunch of criminals and money wasting liars they are.......Now I despise them as the political scum they are along with the vermin Lib dems.

Don't think much of labour either but would choose them any day over the political scum of the lib/con pact......

[arista]

"Don't think much of labour either"

that is the problem here and in Scotland.

[Livia]

In my area there were 46 council seats up covering 37 wards. The LibDems placed candidates in only a handful of wards, with a couple of paper candidates in areas they had no chance of winning. If they'd worked harder they'd have done better. Their literature was amateurish and scruffy, as were most of their candidates. Their "Yes to AV" campaign was weak and ineffective whereas the Tories "No" campaign was well run and well-funded. Most of the LibDems didn't turn up at the count, and only one Labour candidate arrived (late). No one from UKIP or the Greens even bothered showing up. The Tories did well in my area because most people understand the reason we have cuts is that Labour spent all the money.

The real problem is that people can't be bothered to vote. Look at the turnout for elections and you'll see half the people in the country don't vote, and therefore they have no right to moan.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Well understand your bitterness. Especially on your first vote.....Your judgment is not at fault. Sadly what you will see as you go through life is that all polititions from all parties are liars and toe rags....

I nearly voted lib at the general for the first time in my voting life (now aged 70). I too am glad I did not. My main venom is aimed at the Tories. First 25 years of my voting life went to the Tories. However i just happened to join the civil service when Thatcher was elected (with my help I voted for the scum bag).

It was then in the civil service with access to information that I learned what a bunch of criminals and money wasting liars they are.......Now I despise them as the political scum they are along with the vermin Lib dems.

Don't think much of labour either but would choose them any day over the political scum of the lib/con pact......

Yes you are right that they are liars,it was why I felt I could not vote for Labour or the Tories,although on policy in the main although they hide the detail. largely they do what they outline as major policy when in govt.
My gripe this election is not with the Tories,they are doing what their policy was stated as (although I consider it wrong especially on the NHS),the wrong thing is that they have got no mandate to do the policies from the voters.

I believed Clegg when he said the only voice that matters is the voters, that MPs have to be accountable to the voters and after the expenses scandal that trust had to be restored in politics.

I am not joking when I say that many Students were almost stalked by Lib Dem candidates and party workers stressing the importance of voting against the Tories to stop increases in tuition fees and to make sure the recovery was not put at risk with Tory savage cuts in the first year.

I trusted their word and promises,they got mine and many other first time voters votes and then they used the power in the seats they got to give to the Tories what the voters would not, an overall mandate to do their cuts right away and tripling tuition fees.
That to me is getting votes under false pretences.

Who to vote for as to myself in the future is now easy though, I will vote to get rid of or defeat any Lib Dem candidate and for any party that can beat them in the seat I vote in. I will also help any party in by elections anywhere to defeat the Lib Dem candidate while Clegg is leader.

You are right indeed and I greatly respect your opinion and experience of politics, it would seem they are all in the main liars and toe rags, that shouldn't be how it is in the UK and for me a promise is a promise and the Lib Dems under Clegg have broken enough for and to me that will make me avoid voting for them likely ever again.

Thank you for your enlightenment to your experience of the Thatcher era too, I found what you said interesting,thank you for sharing that.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by arista

"You stick up for the lying Lib Dems and Clegg"


Clegg is on SkyNews HD now

I am Conservative -LibDem
a year before that Election result
I was saying to a former bully boy member andyman
that a Conservative -LibDem power is better
than Stinking UnElected New Labour Brown.


I was right.

In your view. My view is you could not be more wrong..........

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Yes you are right that they are liars,it was why I felt I could not vote for Labour or the Tories,although on policy in the main although they hide the detail. largely they do what they outline as major policy when in govt.
My gripe this election is not with the Tories,they are doing what their policy was stated as (although I consider it wrong especially on the NHS),the wrong thing is that they have got no mandate to do the policies from the voters.

I believed Clegg when he said the only voice that matters is the voters, that MPs have to be accountable to the voters and after the expenses scandal that trust had to be restored in politics.

I am not joking when I say that many Students were almost stalked by Lib Dem candidates and party workers stressing the importance of voting against the Tories to stop increases in tuition fees and to make sure the recovery was not put at risk with Tory savage cuts in the first year.

I trusted their word and promises,they got mine and many other first time voters votes and then they used the power in the seats they got to give to the Tories what the voters would not, an overall mandate to do their cuts right away and tripling tuition fees.
That to me is getting votes under false pretences.

Who to vote for as to myself in the future is now easy though, I will vote to get rid of or defeat any Lib Dem candidate and for any party that can beat them in the seat I vote in. I will also help any party in by elections anywhere to defeat the Lib Dem candidate while Clegg is leader.

You are right indeed and I greatly respect your opinion and experience of politics, it would seem they are all in the main liars and toe rags, that shouldn't be how it is in the UK and for me a promise is a promise and the Lib Dems under Clegg have broken enough for and to me that will make me avoid voting for them likely ever again.

Thank you for your enlightenment to your experience of the Thatcher era too, I found what you said interesting,thank you for sharing that.

Thank you. The Lib dems under Clegg have shown amazing stupidity. If ever the Lib party hoped in the future to form a government in their own right by winning seats they would have to do it via winning the minds and hearts of new generations......Oldies like me and younger oldies will stick mainly to their chosen political beliefs. Not enough floating voters for the libs to gain many more seats than now.

So what do the lib dick heads do they alienate their future......The young ones by decieving and betraying them.......They have destroyed their own political future to placate a bunch of right wing slash and burn loonies with their same old failed slash and burn policies.

I watched Clegg on tv this afternoon on question time. Sitting behind the puppet master Cameron. Clegg nodding his little lap dog head like one of those nodding dogs in the back of a car. If only he realized what a complete idiot he looks. He looks like a tory. he thinks like a tory. He beahaves like a tory and still he doesn't understand why lib voters are abandoning his party.

The lib dems politically are to the left of labour and yet they get into bed with right wing loonies...Cameron must lose a lot of sleep at night laughing his head off at such mugs in the lib party.

Truth is Clegg and his cronies are not in with the tories to save the country they are in it to savour power for themselves.....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Thank you. The Lib dems under Clegg have shown amazing stupidity. If ever the Lib party hoped in the future to form a government in their own right by winning seats they would have to do it via winning the minds and hearts of new generations......Oldies like me and younger oldies will stick mainly to their chosen political beliefs. Not enough floating voters for the libs to gain many more seats than now.

So what do the lib dick heads do they alienate their future......The young ones by decieving and betraying them.......They have destroyed their own political future to placate a bunch of right wing slash and burn loonies with their same old failed slash and burn policies.

I watched Clegg on tv this afternoon on question time. Sitting behind the puppet master Cameron. Clegg nodding his little lap dog head like one of those nodding dogs in the back of a car. If only he realized what a complete idiot he looks. He looks like a tory. he thinks like a tory. He beahaves like a tory and still he doesn't understand why lib voters are abandoning his party.

The lib dems politically are to the left of labour and yet they get into bed with right wing loonies...Cameron must lose a lot of sleep at night laughing his head off at such mugs in the lib party.

Truth is Clegg and his cronies are not in with the tories to save the country they are in it to savour power for themselves.....

It is really good when someone,as you have, outlines the real facts of the situation. Not just spouting prejudices from a particular party allegiance, but which, all have a right to do obviously though.

I can only agree fully with all you have said, you are right as to the Lib Dems just savouring power for themselves,the party at large though must be slowly realising the massive likely irrepairable damage that is being done to the party by Clegg and his MPs
I do have to grin watching Clegg nodding as Cameron is talking at PMQs,(which is a total farce anyway).
He looks ridiculous.

Things are not going to get better in 4 years, the next round of major cuts are coming up to 2013,the job losses will be severe,Inflation is expected to rise and be high until 2013.
From 2013, masses of people are really going to feel the restraints of much higher bills, higher costs for food,less benefits, less money coming in as most households are likely to lose at least 1 person in work over the next 3+ years.

Not a thing has come off the deficit yet despite the cuts,in fact the govt has got itself stuck on more expenditure, the involvement in Libya, costing near £1.000.00 for every missile fired, millions of aid each year to India and Pakistan, the bail outs for EU Nations in difficulty. Then the waste of money on this referendum just held.

I do not believe the UK is in the bad shape the govt says we are, if we really were as bad as they say,we would firstly not be able to do any or all of those things above or for that matter be allowed to, IF we are, as the govt says, being watched closely by the Worlds financial institutions.

As you have said bananarama, politicians are liars,all of them in all parties,what a choice the voters have.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It is really good when someone,as you have, outlines the real facts of the situation. Not just spouting prejudices from a particular party allegiance, but which, all have a right to do obviously though.

I can only agree fully with all you have said, you are right as to the Lib Dems just savouring power for themselves,the party at large though must be slowly realising the massive likely irrepairable damage that is being done to the party by Clegg and his MPs
I do have to grin watching Clegg nodding as Cameron is talking at PMQs,(which is a total farce anyway).
He looks ridiculous.

Things are not going to get better in 4 years, the next round of major cuts are coming up to 2013,the job losses will be severe,Inflation is expected to rise and be high until 2013.
From 2013, masses of people are really going to feel the restraints of much higher bills, higher costs for food,less benefits, less money coming in as most households are likely to lose at least 1 person in work over the next 3+ years.

Not a thing has come off the deficit yet despite the cuts,in fact the govt has got itself stuck on more expenditure, the involvement in Libya, costing near £1.000.00 for every missile fired, millions of aid each year to India and Pakistan, the bail outs for EU Nations in difficulty. Then the waste of money on this referendum just held.

I do not believe the UK is in the bad shape the govt says we are, if we really were as bad as they say,we would firstly not be able to do any or all of those things above or for that matter be allowed to, IF we are, as the govt says, being watched closely by the Worlds financial institutions.

As you have said bananarama, politicians are liars,all of them in all parties,what a choice the voters have.

Indeed you might well question the truth or not about the state the incoming government found. Incoming governments will always claim things are worse true or false. It's an insurance policy that enables them to blame the previous government if their policies go pear shaped......

The libs claim to have back tracked on their promises because the state of the economy is worse than they new of before the election. This is a lib lie because all oposition parties always expect to find the previous government has concealed and watered down the truth. So when the libs made their promises to the student they new full well they would probably have to break promises and insult the intelligence of the students by making the excuses they now make.

May interest you to know a little more about the Tories during the 1980 and 90's. Here is a factual example. The Tories like now hate the civil service so went on a campaign to destroy as much of it as feasable.

First shot was to privatise privatise and privatise. Some of the first victims were low paid civil servant cleaning staff. The hourly rate for that job in 1980 was £1-90 per hour. 16 years later under a private complany and split into part time jobs the hourly rate went to £2-10 per hour......

A rise of 20p over 16 years and also loss of holiday entitlements exept those holidays written in law. Something like an average of one and a half pence per hour per year. Shamefull.. The tories then of course refused to bring in a minimum wage to protect employees from low wage exploitation. Indeed David Davidson the Tory claimed the minimum wage was "evil".

I know of cases where civil service in house duties were contracted out as a matter of Tory dogma and it cost twice as much from the private sector.

The greatest myth of modern times is that the private sector is some sort of majic bullet of cost saving and efficiency. New Labour when the took office took up the tory batton and went on with private sector involvments only to be accused by the tories of wasting money. Yep they wasted money because they followed tory policies and still did right up to when Brown was booted out.....

It's not the ownership of an organisation that matters it's the "management" that matters........With good management you get good results be it private or public.........However polititions live by the code of dogma and common sense goes right out of the window..........

[joeysteele]

Thanks for that bananarama, I am studying politics and I found that personal insight really interesting from you.

In books we get the authors interpetration of events and depending on the authors you can get very conflicting views as to the workings of Parties when in govt.
Books are fine for Election data etc;

I talk to as many people as I can who have greater experience of life as to politics, elections and events,because,like yourself, they lived through it, they felt the real negative imapacts or positive benefits as to what Govts. did in power.

Thank you very much for taking the time to enlighten me,I greatly appreciate that.

[arista]

Originally Posted by bananarama

In your view. My view is you could not be more wrong..........

New Labour Walked away from the LibDem Deal


So that is Fact.




I back Winners.

5 Year term



Feel The Force.

[joeysteele]

There was no viable deal to be had with the Lib Dems and Labour because of the risky mathematics,but it was the Lib DEms that walked from any deal there.
Labour and the Lib Dems could only total 315 seats together,that meant they would be at the mercy of the SNP,Plaid Cymru,the Conservatives and the DUP who would have totalled around 325 between them.

With likely by-elections any coalition between the Lib Dems and Labour may not have lasted with any long stability.

However,in fact this is what the Lib Dems walked away from with Labour, Labour offered AV in place for the next election, plus a review into a likely referendum on PR too, the cutting of the deficit plan over 4 years but no cuts in the first year,no plans to increase VAT and no increases in Tuition fees.
That was what was offered to the Lib Dems from Labour,the Lib Dems walked away from that, preferring not to trust the SNP.Plaid Cymru or the DUP to avoid bringing down a Labour/Lib Dem coalition,despite Alex Salmond suggesting that very thing, a Labour-Lib Dem coalition committed to moving to PR, avoiding cuts in the first year and having an agreement with him and other parties not to vote against that anti-Tory coalition

The Lib Dems walked away from Labour because the Lib Dems demanded much more from Labour than they dared demand from the Tories.

[arista]

Yes but New Labour Gave up fast
and Pathetic Double UnElected Brown
walked out.

And before the Election day His Foolish Comments about Gillian Duffy
were on a SkyNews mic.


Utter Bliss

[joeysteele]

The Lib Dems under Clegg had no intention of working with Gordon Brown anyway. Clegg said that from halfway through the election.

I had no time for Brown but he was not unelected as we the voters do not elect Prime Ministers, we elect parties to Govt,technically any member for that party elected to Westminster can be PM.

MowHEre on my ballot paper was Gordon Browns name, David Camerons or Nick Cleggs, I voted for a party candidate not whether I wanted him/her to be PM.

Brown was selected by his party to be their leader when Blair went,but as for changing leaders while in Govt, the Conservatives from all I have read were past masters of it.

Winston Churchill elected in 1951, stepped down for Eden to fight the 1955 election, Eden was gone and Harold McMillan made leader of the Conservatives to fight the 1959 election,McMillan stood down in 1963, and Alec Douglas-Home took over as PM until the 1964 election. Then of course in the 90s the Tories stabbed 3 times election winner Thatcher in the back in 1990,got rid of her and replaced her with John Major who then fought the 1992 election.

AS I said we the voters elect parties to govt,we have a party system in the UK, we dont all directly vote for a Prime Minister.
Had for instance Labour or the Conservatives won an overall majority but Gordon Brown or David Cameron lost their seat, then the Labour or Conservative 'party' would have had to put a new PM in place with no referral back to the voters at all.

[arista]

"I had no time for Brown but he was not unelected as we the voters do not elect Prime Ministers, we elect parties to Govt,technically any member for that party elected to Westminster can be PM."


He was Never Elected by the Public.

John Major , for example
who took over from Thatcher
called a Election and the Public Elected him


So Poxy Brown was 100% UnElected in that sense

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes but New Labour Gave up fast
and Pathetic Double UnElected Brown
walked out.

And before the Election day His Foolish Comments about Gillian Duffy
were on a SkyNews mic.


Utter Bliss

How was he then as you said in this quote doubly unelected if as is rightly the case he only fought one election as leader of Labour, whereas you rightly point out John major did fight elections and won one of them.
Losing the other he fought in 1997.
It was the double unelected part of your post I responded to.

arista, I couldn't stand Gordon Brown, he was never up to the job of PM and was a walking disaster near all the time.
I think we agree on that one very much.

[arista]

"arista, I couldn't stand Gordon Brown, he was never up to the job of PM and was a walking disaster near all the time.
I think we agree on that one very much. "


Yes
I just love calling him Double UnElected
as he could have called a Election
well before last year, but was scared.
He made sure millions was spent on every home getting a leaflet though.


I hate Brown.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Livia

In my area there were 46 council seats up covering 37 wards. The LibDems placed candidates in only a handful of wards, with a couple of paper candidates in areas they had no chance of winning. If they'd worked harder they'd have done better. Their literature was amateurish and scruffy, as were most of their candidates. Their "Yes to AV" campaign was weak and ineffective whereas the Tories "No" campaign was well run and well-funded. Most of the LibDems didn't turn up at the count, and only one Labour candidate arrived (late). No one from UKIP or the Greens even bothered showing up. The Tories did well in my area because most people understand the reason we have cuts is that Labour spent all the money.

The real problem is that people can't be bothered to vote. Look at the turnout for elections and you'll see half the people in the country don't vote, and therefore they have no right to moan.

The only explanation I can think of is that the Lib Dems were resigned to failing miserably in both the local elections and the referendum. Not that campaigning, fundraising and public relations are their strong points anyway. They have known the spoils of their policy sacrifices (the possibility of a PR referendum to eventually shoehorn themselves into the league of a leading party) were long lost for many months now. The rest is theatre and grandstanding just as I suspect their new 'muscular' stance is. Thank God none of us are stupid enough to fall for it anymore.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by arista

New Labour Walked away from the LibDem Deal


So that is Fact.




I back Winners.

5 Year term



Feel The Force.

You have a strange perception of history. A lib/lab deal was just not viable.....The libs went for the party they thought could give them the most power and a possibility of in government longevity......