[Angus]

I don't think I have rubbished anyone's opinion - though I have commented on the one-sidedness of accusing this poor man of being "selfish". I think any judgment of his actions should be balanced against the recognition that the state of his mind at the time he ended his life was such that he was incapable of making any rational decision, being so overwhelmed with grief and pain, never mind be able to foresee the repercussions of his actions on others. To use the word "selfish" to describe his suicide is to presuppose that he purposefully and deliberately chose a course of action having full possession of all his faculties when in fact he did not.

[Kazanne]

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Angus

I don't think I have rubbished anyone's opinion - though I have commented on the one-sidedness of accusing this poor man of being "selfish". I think any judgment of his actions should be balanced against the recognition that the state of his mind at the time he ended his life was such that he was incapable of making any rational decision, being so overwhelmed with grief and pain, never mind be able to foresee the repercussions of his actions on others. To use the word "selfish" to describe his suicide is to presuppose that he purposefully and deliberately chose a course of action having full possession of all his faculties when in fact he did not.

As much as it is to presuppose that he didn't. Not one of us can ever know precisely what he was able to comprehend or not. It appear it is fine for a one sided argument, as long as it is in favour of assuming he was completely without any understanding of the impact of him taking his own life would subsequently result in for his wife.

Much one way assumptions going on here without considering both sides of the coin.

[Glenn.]

It takes a lot to kill yourself.

The basic reaction of the human body when fatally under attack is to stay alive. Yeah he was grieving but there must of been a tiny bit of him that resisted no matter how depressed he was. That would of been his bodies natural reaction to the situation. It's a primitive instinct to stay alive.

The point of the matter is no matter how you wrap it up to be moral and right is he had no thought for his wife when he hung himself. Simple as that. He's dead he had no more pain and suffering, something his wife has to live with for the rest of her life. Wondering every day if she could of done something different. IMO no one has that right to make someone feel like that. And the mere fact that it didn't stop the suicide shows there was only thought for himself in that moment.

[Shaun]

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place

[Benjamin]

An interesting point, that I forgot to mention earlier, is that if you speak to a lot of the loved ones, who have been left behind, they do not consider the act to be done for selfish purposes.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place

Don't regret posting the thread Shaun,it has been a really good debate

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kazanne

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

I agree Kazanne...suicide/abortion/death penalty...any life/death subject cannot NOT be emotive and the opinions will be diverse and passionate

[Benjamin]

I concur. It's been interesting to see opinions on such a sensitive and misunderstood subject.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I think a more appropriate word could be 'desperate'. That suggests a kind of...finality about the decision, and supercedes any defamation about his conscience.

This is all quite silly now though. I do regret posting the thread in the first place

It's been a fired up subject for sure, but that was always going to be the case, overall though, it's interesting to see how different people view the same situation.

is that if you speak to a lot of the loved ones, who have been left behind, they do not consider the act to be done for selfish purposes.

You are speaking to one of those loved ones who have been left behind, and this one does consider it a selfish act: an incredibly hard and difficult one to have to see through, but I still find it selfish. Most of my relatives at the time felt exactly the same btw.

[Glenn.]

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Glenn

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

Aw Glenn, please don't start calling people who commit suicide disgusting. selfish was bad enough.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Glenn

I doubt it would go through your head if you were a loved one. You probably wouldn't see it as selfish at the time.

But over the years it would dawn on you.

My friend that killed herself for instance. I was incredibly sad when I found out. And I was sad for a long time, until it settled on me no matter how she was feeling, the was explicitly no reason for suicide and the fact she did and left her family to pick up the pieces was disgusting.

See again, I find that generalisation wrong. I think it is best I leave this thread for a while before I do get angry.

[Glenn.]

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Aw Glenn, please don't start calling people who commit suicide disgusting. selfish was bad enough.

I don't think it's fair to say that to Glenn. It's how he personally feels. Not everyone has the same view on suicide; matters of life and death provoke the strongest responses from people and I think we should all accept that fact. I know for a fact that my parents see suicide as being a selfish act and I do too - just because it makes that person's suffering end doesn't mean the matter is over and done with. Every person that dies affects somebody else, whether it be family, friends, neighbours, employers... somebody cares.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Glenn

It takes a lot to kill yourself. The basic reaction of the human body when fatally under attack is to stay alive. Yeah he was grieving but there must of been a tiny bit of him that resisted no matter how depressed he was. That would of been his bodies natural reaction to the situation. It's a primitive instinct to stay alive. The point of the matter is no matter how you wrap it up to be moral and right is he had no thought for his wife when he hung himself. Simple as that. He's dead he had no more pain and suffering, something his wife has to live with for the rest of her life. Wondering every day if she could of done something different. IMO no one has that right to make someone feel like that. And the mere fact that it didn't stop the suicide shows there was only thought for himself in that moment.

I certainly wouldn't consider suicide "moral" or "right". There seems to be no concession whatsoever in your stance to the notion that he was NOT in his right and sane mind when he did the deed. So you are judging him somewhat unfairly by standards we normally attribute to people in full possession of all their mental faculties. I find that hard to understand. To commit suicide is not a normal reaction to life's adversities, so one can only speculate about the state of his mind at that moment. I would wager he was mentally unbalanced, totally incapable of rationalising his behaviour, let alone control it. Why should he be labelled "selfish" for being in the grip of a mental aberration so totally outside his control?

[Glenn.]

Her own parents feel the same. They naturally blamed themselves for not letting her go out, but it sunk in to the fact they weren't to blame and I quote her mum directly, "I will never forgive her for doing this". I agree with them completely.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Glenn

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

Do you really think that was her only reason for taking her life though? I just find that so hard to believe that someone would deprive themselves of the only life they have just to hurt someone else.

[Glenn.]

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

See again, I find that generalisation wrong. I think it is best I leave this thread for a while before I do get angry.

I dont' see it as generalising. It is how Glenn feels.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.

Ok, well I'll have to take your word for that. It just seems so crazy, I can't even get my head around it. I would say though, that most people kill themselves out of utter desperation and hopelessness.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok, well I'll have to take your word for that. It just seems so crazy, I can't even get my head around it. I would say though, that most people kill themselves out of utter desperation and hopelessness.

Honestly, the island was shocked to the core.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Yes it was Niamh. Honestly, she had no worries in her life. She was embarrassed because her friends were going out and she wasn't allowed.

That is something none of us can ever know for sure, not even her parents. Being grounded or whatever might just have been the straw that broke the camel's back. who knows? No matter how close we think we are with people we can't be sure that we know EVERYTHING about them.

However, my personal opinion is that it is more likely she didn't intend to irrevocably harm herself, it was more a cry for attention that went wrong.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Honestly, the island was shocked to the core.

Well, if that was genuinely the only reason she did it, then I could see why you would consider her to be selfish. With my friend, she suffered from depression, she was getting help but it obviously wasn't enough. She did want to and try to feel better. She left me a letter, and in it she said that she could never be the happy person she once was and I felt so bad for her, feeling like that, so hopeless and not seeing how she would ever get out of it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Glenn

In this case it was disgusting. To tell your parents you were going to kill yourself because they refused to let you out clubbing on Christmas Eve then to do it? What would you call it?

This is a genuine question Glenn...do you think your opinion may be different if your friend hadn't done what she had...because imo her reasons, if as you say were simply that, are not typical or representative of other suicides..which come from pain and not anger