[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Angus

That is something none of us can ever know for sure, not even her parents. Being grounded or whatever might just have been the straw that broke the camel's back. who knows? No matter how close we think we are with people we can't be sure that we know EVERYTHING about them.

However, my personal opinion is that it is more likely she didn't intend to irrevocably harm herself, it was more a cry for attention that went wrong.

If she was so depressed someone would of noticed. She had a number of close friends. She had the perfect life. Depression really wasn't a factor in this.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

This is a genuine question Glenn...do you think your opinion may be different if your friend hadn't done what she had...because imo her reasons, if as you say were simply that, are not typical or representative of other suicides..which come from pain and not anger

I would feel the same either way. Of course her suicide has some impact in my views but we've had a lot of suicides on the island and all have left families devastated.

So in answer to your question, no I wouldnt feel differently at all. I just don't think it's right.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Glenn

If she was so depressed someone would of noticed. She had a number of close friends. She had the perfect life. Depression really wasn't a factor in this.

I was merely playing the devil's advocate since it is not unusual to hear famillies and friends express shock and surprise when a loved one commits suicide saying they had no idea why blah blah blah.....

Personally I think she was just intending to scare her family but it went horribly wrong. Sadly we will never know. As for her mother being angry with her - anger is a much easier emotion to deal with than grief.

Originally Posted by kazanne

No one will be in full agreement on this thread,I just see that this man loved his son so much he could not live without him,It DOES happen,I don't think he was selfish ,he was just so overcome with grief,his wife may even take some comfort that he is with his son.

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

[Glenn.]

This is the news report of the my friend suicide

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Glenn

This is the news report of the my friend suicide

Having read that, I'm even more convinced that she didn't really intend to kill herself.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

In your opinion...

Originally Posted by JH95

In your opinion...

Well there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Well there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

And there is no evidence to suggest that heaven doesn't exist. Im not getting into this, we will ve hear all night and it is completely off topic.

Originally Posted by JH95

And there is no evidence to suggest that heaven doesn't exist. Im not getting into this, we will ve hear all night and it is completely off topic.

There is no proof heaven doesn't exist because it's impossible to prove a negative. It's up to those that postulate a heaven to step up and prove there is substance to their beliefs.

There is no proof that I'm not playing with a pink unicorn this very minute.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

There is no proof heaven doesn't exist because it's impossible to prove a negative. It's up to those that postulate a heaven to step up and prove there is substance to their beliefs.

There is no proof that I'm not playing with a pink unicorn this very minute.

Are you?

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you?

I might be

[Livia]

People with no faith can be so aggressive and dismissive towards those who do. Why can't people's beliefs be their own affair? People who believe in something don't have to prove a thing to those with no faith.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Except he isn't really with his son. He may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but they are not frolicking on clouds, skipping, and taking harp lessons together.

No one knows that do they?and no one said they were 'frollicking on clouds with harps' did they?In his mind he would be with his son,NO ONE knows what is after death for certain.

Originally Posted by Livia

People with no faith can be so aggressive and dismissive towards those who do. Why can't people's beliefs be their own affair? People who believe in something don't have to prove a thing to those with no faith.

Because in no other sphere of life, would people be able to make ridiculous claims, and go completely unchallenged. Asking someone to show their workings out is not aggressive.

If beliefs stay personal and inside that persons own home/head, then I have no problem with it, but nobody is being fair when we allow to nonsense to pass without question.

Originally Posted by kazanne

No one knows that do they?and no one said they were 'frollicking on clouds with harps' did they?In his mind he would be with his son,NO ONE knows what is after death for certain.

Well we do know that he may be decomposing next to his decomposing son, but that's the only claim I made. I actually feel that giving your body back to the earth and becoming a vehicle for new life, is all the afterlife I'll ever need.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Because in no other sphere of life, would people be able to make ridiculous claims, and go completely unchallenged. Asking someone to show their workings out is not aggressive.

If beliefs stay personal and inside that persons own home/head, then I have no problem with it, but nobody is being fair when we allow to nonsense to pass without question.

I have never suggested my faith is good for everyone, and everyone should join in. It's personal to me. No one has to justify their faith to you, or to anyone so if you have a problem with it, it's very much your problem. I wouldn't ask you to "show the workings" of what you believe, because I don't care what you believe. I wouldn't try to belittle you by suggesting what you do or don't believe is "ridiculous".

Unless you really do have all the answers, I'd say it's down to the individual to follow their faith and as long as they're not trying to convert or otherwise interefere with you, you should respect that.

Originally Posted by Livia

I have never suggested my faith is good for everyone, and everyone should join in. It's personal to me. No one has to justify their faith to you, or to anyone so if you have a problem with it, it's very much your problem. I wouldn't ask you to "show the workings" of what you believe, because I don't care what you believe. I wouldn't try to belittle you by suggesting what you do or don't believe is "ridiculous".

Unless you really do have all the answers, I'd say it's down to the individual to follow their faith and as long as they're not trying to convert or otherwise interefere with you, you should respect that.

Faith = belief without evidence. Religion and the religious aren't happy with the kind of personal faith that you advocate, they very much want a say in public life.

When British Bishops blame homosexuality for floods, then that faith that you advocate, refuses to stay personal and private.

I wouldn't go around making claims about things that rely on bronze-aged myths to corroborate their story. By all means, ask me to show my workings out on any subject I hold an opinion, and I'll explain it to you. What I absolutely would not do, is retreat behind the protection of faith.

By having faith, you have a model of how the world works in your head. Asking to explain that is not aggressive.

By not having faith, I also have a model of how the world works in my head. Anyone asking me to explain that is not being aggressive towards me.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Faith = belief without evidence. Religion and the religious aren't happy with the kind of personal faith that you advocate, they very much want a say in public life.

When British Bishops blame homosexuality for floods, then that faith that you advocate, refuses to stay personal and private.

I wouldn't go around making claims about things that rely on bronze-aged myths to corroborate their story. By all means, ask me to show my workings out on any subject I hold an opinion, and I'll explain it to you. What I absolutely would not do, is retreat behind the protection of faith.

By having faith, you have a model of how the world works in your head. Asking to explain that is not aggressive.

By not having faith, I also have a model of how the world works in my head. Anyone asking me to explain that is not being aggressive towards me.

So if you believe in heaven, you need to believe in the whole Catholic shabang? I can't stand it when people feel the need to question a persons belief to such a high extent. Tell me again, why is it any of your business?

Originally Posted by JH95

So if you believe in heaven, you need to believe in the whole Catholic shabang. I can't stand it when people feel the need to question a persons belief to such a high extent. Tell me again, why is it any of your business?

If people can't explain their beliefs, then maybe they should spend more time thinking about them, so they can?

Ask me anything about what I believe and I'll explain it happily, without being offended by the big, bad, atheist.

I neither ask, nor expect, anything I believe to be exempt from evidence or facts.

I wasn't even replying to one of your posts, but you had to interject a religious response. Yet amazingly, you are now having a go at me for your initiation of this dialogue.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

If people can't explain their beliefs, then maybe they should spend more time thinking about them, so they can?

Ask me anything about what I believe and I'll explain it happily, without being offended by the big, bad, atheist.

I neither ask, nor expect, anything I believe to be exempt from evidence or facts.

I wasn't even replying to one of your posts, but you had to interject a religious response. Yet amazingly, you are now having a go at me for your initiation of this dialogue.

Go on then, ask me an actual question about my beliefs and I will answer. But don't tell me I'm wrong when you obviously don't agree.

Originally Posted by JH95

Go on then, ask me an actual question about my beliefs and I will answer. But don't tell me I'm wrong when you obviously don't agree.

Do you believe in heaven?

What happens there?

What evidence is there for that?

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Do you believe in heaven?

Yep...

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Do you believe in heaven?

What happens there?

What evidence is there for that?

We see deceased love ones and spend eternal life together. And nope, thats why its called a belief.

[Pyramid*]

Unless things have changed since I was a young girl and being brought up RC (and they may have), suicide to a Catholic was a grevious sin, a mortal sin and the soul would be sent to Purgatory, and then eternal death in hell. So as far as sitting clouds and playing harps is concerned - as far as the Catholic faith is concerned, that won't be happening. Suicide was regarded as one of the big 'no nos'.

That aside: I'm not entirely sure what religion has to do with this thread - it seems to have taken some offshoot in a totally different direction.