[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by the truth

incidentally do men ever ask their wives or lovers for abortions? thats another example where an abortion could come about as a fickle life choice. i.e. he may want to keep the affair quiet or he may not want the hassle and finance of bringing up a child. again its not male v female issue, it throws up loads of different scenarios, each ending with a baby effectively murdered.

I believe there are quite a few cases where men have asked a woman to have an abortion, if they're not in a relationship for example and don't want to pay for that child

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The problem with this is the tests you mentioned above. The original downs/spina bifada tests are done between 10-14 weeks. They cant be done earlier than that, nothing would show up. If you are considered 'high risk' (under 1/100 chance I *think*) you are offered more tests..this is after waiting a week/fortnight for the results of the first one (so you could be16 weeks gone by the time you got the results). No idea how long the other tests take as I had a 1/70,000 chance so they didnt even discuss that with me.

90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester anyway, I would imagine this is most of those who are doing it for anything other than medical reasons (excluding those who do not realise until late on that they are pregnant). Reducing the limit to 12 weeks would only force people to carry on with pregnancies where there are 'problems' (I say problems like that as not everyone would see having a severely disabled child as a 'problem', but some would)


I guess it could be a 8/12 week limit unless there is a valid medical reason (not including cleft lip etc that are classed as reasons to get late abortions now ) but this still has the problem of those who dont even realise they are pregnant until they are quite late on :/

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Ah right I get you. Yeah I think the 24 week limit is for any reason. Though its not always as easy to get an abortion as people think (quite how some people manage to get multiple ones I dont know). Its not quite just going to the docs and saying you want one. You need 2 docs to agree with you that it is the right thing for you and the fetus. You are also 'supposed' to get proper counselling beforehand to make sure you arent doing it for the wrong reasons, or arent going to regret it immediately, though I know this doesnt always happen.

Not many abortions are carried out after 13 weeks though anyway. As I said earlier, it seems quite self regulating. Possibly because its a much different method getting a later abortion than an early one.

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

An early abortion (before 13 weeks) is pretty much exactly the same as a miscarriage. You take pills and it kind of induces a miscarriage. Late on I believe it requires an operation of some kind, so yeah I would think your body probably would go into shock or something.

I seriously doubt there are many people who just chose to have an abortion after 13 weeks because they decide they dont want/cant support/etc a baby...its something you would know immediately really. I think its likely that most done after this point are for medical reasons or because the woman didnt even know she was pregnant until late on. I know of some people who didnt even know they were pregnant until they were 6month+ gone

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that's interesting, I can understand that people may have there own reasons for not wishing the pregnancy to go ahead and those reasons are for nobody else to judge but I guess, I don't understand how they couldn't know this from an earlier stage in the pregnancy..but I suppose circumstances could change during the course of ther pregnancy as well....it's good that they have all of the emotional counselling too...I would have thought that their body and emotions almost go into shock when they're suddenly not pregnant...I don't know if it's different with a miscarriage because the body has rejected the pregnancy or the baby hasn't survived....it's important that they feel certain they're making the right choice for them...

I was 17 weeks pregnant with my son before I found out I was pregnant

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

Thats really awful :/

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

..yeah, I remember watching a documentary years ago about some Irish girls who came over to the UK to abort their pregnancies...their stories and circumstances were quite sad and tragic and to me they seemed to have very good reasons for their decisions, which weren't taken lightly, but they were treated like outcasts....

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah, I remember watching a documentary years ago about some Irish girls who came over to the UK to abort their pregnancies...their stories and circumstances were quite sad and tragic and to me they seemed to have very good reasons for their decisions, which weren't taken lightly, but they were treated like outcasts....

I suppose the only consolation with it is that a person would really have to think it through and take it seriously to get an abortion if you live here because you have to go to such lengths to get one.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

An early abortion (before 13 weeks) is pretty much exactly the same as a miscarriage. You take pills and it kind of induces a miscarriage. Late on I believe it requires an operation of some kind, so yeah I would think your body probably would go into shock or something.

I seriously doubt there are many people who just chose to have an abortion after 13 weeks because they decide they dont want/cant support/etc a baby...its something you would know immediately really. I think its likely that most done after this point are for medical reasons or because the woman didnt even know she was pregnant until late on. I know of some people who didnt even know they were pregnant until they were 6month+ gone

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I was 17 weeks pregnant with my son before I found out I was pregnant :shocked:

...I suppose that just proves the point that it isn't up to us to judge these things...circumstances may mean a woman seeks a later abortion...

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I suppose that just proves the point that it isn't up to us to judge these things...circumstances may mean a woman seeks a later abortion...

Well yes and I'd imagine these cases are quite rare

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I suppose the only consolation with it is that a person would really have to think it through and take it seriously to get an abortion if you live here because you have to go to such lengths to get one.

..yeah, there is that to it..I would have liked the documentary to show how their community reacted to them, having gone through with it though...it ended with them travelling to the UK to have the abortions...I don't think it even said at the end whether they actually did have them...they may have changed their minds once they arrived here...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Abortion is still illegal here. What I was surprised and quite horrified to hear though was that hospitals will do abortions if the mothers life is at risk but not if the baby is suffering from a disease that means they'll die a couple of hours after they're born, the woman has to go to England for a termination or else see it through, have the baby and wait till it dies itself.

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Thats really awful :/

whats the most awful? killing a baby in the bomb because he may be sick or letting him live and giving him/her a fighting chance to survive?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well yes and I'd imagine these cases are quite rare

1 murdered formed child is one too many

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by the truth

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

I think niamhs point is that It's horrifying because it's double standards. If your argument is how do you know that the baby will not survive then the flip side is why allow a woman whose life is at risk to have a termination...how do you know the woman will not survive if the pregnancy progresses????

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by the truth

eh? how does one know for certain if a baby with a disease will survive? why are you horrified if the hospital gives the child at least a chance to live?

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

[the truth]

Originally Posted by anniek76

I think niamhs point is that It's horrifying because it's double standards. If your argument is how do you know that the baby will not survive then the flip side is why allow a woman whose life is at risk to have a termination...how do you know the woman will not survive if the pregnancy progresses????

Youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever now. The woman gets everything tested, blood, heart, chest, temperature, they can know almost for certain the risk involved in continuing with the pregnancy. if theres a risk of serious harm, they let her know , she decides whether to terminate to save herself. Thats of course 100% fine. But terminating a babies life simply by the chance he may be born sick and may not survive is plain wrong. at that stage if theres no risk tothe motherwhy not have the baby and give the baby a fighting chance? whats wrong with that?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive is murder

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's a certain condition that Doctors can test for, I can't remember the term for it but there were many cases of it in Ireland. I'll try to find out the name and back to you. And btw it's not the hospitals choice, they would have done it but legally they're not allowed to as abortion is illegal here unless the mothers life is at risk

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive murder

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by the truth

well I thin there is a lot to be said in favourof the irish system. to kill a baby at late stage in pregnancy because theres a chance he/she wont survive is murder

here this is it I think, and It's not a chance they won't survive, they definitely won't survive

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/d...029-28e7r.html

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

here this is it I think, and It's not a chance they won't survive, they definitely won't survive

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/d...029-28e7r.html

This is a one in a million case, the majority of cases in which babies are killed off is with babies who will survive. why dont you focus on the 191000 cases who would survive not the 1 in a million who wouldnt?

once you open the door the mass murder of babies in the womb, you end up with 191000 dead babies killed in silence every year without a voice, without a chance to live. Yet the majority on here dont give a damn about the rights of the murdered 191000 a year, all they care about is how offended the mother is or how angry the radical ffeminists are. the rights of the baby are ignored and people just laugh at the rights and feelings of the father who has his new born child murdered

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by the truth

This is a one in a million case, the majority of cases in which babies are killed off is with babies who will survive. why dont you focus on the 191000 cases who would survive not the 1 in a million who wouldnt?

once you open the door the mass murder of babies in the womb, you end up with 191000 dead babies killed in silence every year without a voice, without a chance to live. Yet the majority on here dont give a damn about the rights of the murdered 191000 a year, all they care about is how offended the mother is or how angry the radical ffeminists are. the rights of the baby are ignored and people just laugh at the rights and feelings of the father who has his new born child murdered

Well, if you'd bothered to read my other posts and not just picked that one, you'll see that I'm not "for" abortion at all. And it's not just one in a million, there were quite a few cases of that having happened in Ireland, as I've said abortion is illegal here so the issue of cases like this one being allowed to be dealt with in Ireland is more of an issue for us on medical grounds.

[Ammi]

..I know that you're probably well intentioned truth..but it isn't up to you or anyone else to 'challenge' anything..you have your views and other people have theres and there isn't anything to be challenged..regardless of what facts, figures or research you do...people will gather their own thoughts based on personal life experience too..and that's what makes us all who we are....

[Candy Annie Cane]

The truth you are too blinkered to even read the whole thread.....I actually think you are unable to have an adult debate....the members you have attacked have been the most vocal on their pro-life views.

[Marsh.]

Where have you got 191,000 babies from?