[swinearefine]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Has anyone even bothered to ask the kid what they want?...
It's ok to play amature psychologists and sociologists trying to redefine gender socialisation, but does the kid want to be gender neutral?

This doesn't make sense at all. The whole point of gender-neutral parenting is letting your child make their own decisions and not restricting them to the domain of boys or girls.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by swinearefine

I think the problem is less that parents forcing their kids to do gender-specific things, and more that kids are more inclined to perform these gender-specific things because since birth they've had it instilled in their minds that they are a certain gender, they are different from the other gender, that there is a set of rules for this gender that everyone follows, and that to be accepted in society you follow these rules. There's usually no need to force a girl to wear make-up, for example, because she's known since a very young age that that's what a girl does and that to be accepted she would have to do it.

Exactly, and also other kids, who's parents have been very forceful about generstereotypes bully other kids into stuff. A kid who grew up with parents who told them, don't play with dolls, that's GAY! then those kids go to school, see another kid playing with dolls, and bully's that kid saying "why are you playing with dolls? that's gay!".

So the peer pressure from other kids still affects the kid who has parents that are trying to raise them gender neutral. It's basically impossible to raise your child gender neutral, because the rest of society is still enforcing those gender stereotypes.

[swinearefine]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Exactly, and also other kids, who's parents have been very forceful about generstereotypes bully other kids into stuff. A kid who grew up with parents who told them, don't play with dolls, that's GAY! then those kids go to school, see another kid playing with dolls, and bully's that kid saying "why are you playing with dolls? that's gay!".

So the peer pressure from other kids still affects the kid who has parents that are trying to raise them gender neutral. It's basically impossible to raise your child gender neutral, because the rest of society is still enforcing those gender stereotypes.

I don't think it's impossible, I just thing progress will be slow. We're leaps and bounds more evolved in our beliefs about gender roles than we were a few decades back.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by swinearefine

This doesn't make sense at all. The whole point of gender-neutral parenting is letting your child make their own decisions and not restricting them to the domain of boys or girls.

That may be possible in different circs to this, if they were a first born or had siblings and/or family and friends who were raised similarly.
However in this example you have a child who has two brothers not raised gender neutral, this adds further confusion as it sets the child apart from their brothers.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That may be possible in different circs to this, if they were a first born or had siblings and/or family and friends who were raised similarly.
However in this example you have a child who has two brothers not raised gender neutral, this adds further confusion as it sets the child apart from their brothers.

Right... because brothers raised in gender-stereotypical homes NEVER have competition or difference between them, YOU NEVER hear about brothers not getting along in "normal" homes, right? lol

[Shaun]

I think it's a lose-lose situation.

The idea of it is nice but there's so much judgment in the world about gender, sexuality and even fashion, that it's bound to be counter-intuitive.

Obviously for a child that grows up today and realises that they are transgender it can be a huge mountain to climb, and maybe genderless upbringings are going to be some comfort to those, but those who aren't... well what's the point?

Ultimately I think it's an adult decision being forced upon unwilling children and I don't really feel comfortable with that. If a teenager becomes so aware of and active in gender politics, then it should be an organic process.

[Josy]

I don't think it's right for parents to make this choice for their young children, growing up is confusing enough already for some without parents unnecessarily adding to it, in this case not only the child in question will be affected but also the siblings, it's also complete hypocrisy imho, enforcing neutrality is in fact not very neutral at all is it?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Josy

it's also complete hypocrisy imho, enforcing neutrality is in fact not very neutral at all is it?

Precisely.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Right... because brothers raised in gender-stereotypical homes NEVER have competition or difference between them, YOU NEVER hear about brothers not getting along in "normal" homes, right? lol

Well of course you find brothers disagree in every family, however thats down to personality differences or even where they are in the natural pecking order.
In this instance you have this added difference that could (not saying it has) changed the dynamic of the siblings relationships with each other.

[swinearefine]

I don't see why everyone is treating this like it's some massive decision being made for a kid, when actually the massive, restricting, oppressive decision is pressuring a kid to follow a fabricated gender binary. Like I said, I think the couple in this article is making gender an issue in a way, but gender-neutral parenting in general is actually the absence of forcing your child into doing something.

[Shaun]

I can see what you mean swinearefine, but to me it just seems like a social experiment. Maybe if it's the first awkward step to a freer and more liberated childhood then it might be a good one. I'm not really judging them (although I admit it sounds like it in my above psot), I'm just pointing out the obvious I suppose

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Josy

It's also complete hypocrisy imho, enforcing neutrality is in fact not very neutral at all is it?

ummm, what? How is it not neutral? Enforcing gender stereotypes is not neutral at all, so how could trying to be gender neutral be less neutral than being gender stereotypical?

[Kizzy]

As said many parents do this now anyway, my kids played with whatever they liked and I happen to believe the brain decides what children play with. Right brained boys may love to play dolls and left brained girls the construction set, mum and dad have no say in that its nature not nurture.
Bit late for this isn't it?....haha

[lostalex]

Let's just let kids be kids is basically the premise of "gender neutrality" i think. And i don't see how that could be a bad thing.

I think some people are making this political. There is definitely an element of homophobia with the people who are against gender neutral parenting. They think that you can turn a kid gay, and that there is a gay agenda to "create" more homosexuals.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Let's just let kids be kids is basically the premise of "gender neutrality" i think. And i don't see how that could be a bad thing.

I think some people are making this political. There is definitely an element of homophobia with the people who are against gender neutral parenting. They think that you can turn a kid gay, and that there is a gay agenda to make more homosexuals.

That's not it at all, alex have you read anyone elses posts?
nobody is saying anything of the sort....

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's not it at all, alex have you read anyone elses posts?
nobody is saying anything of the sort....

we are talking about the issue in general Kizzy, not just what epople on this forum have said, and yes i have seen people on other websites that have a homophobic stance. I said SOME PEOPLE, i didn't say YOU. There are lots of people that think that homosexuals are trying to "turn kids gay" by using gender neutral parenting.

[Marsh.]

I could just as easily say lots of gay people will jump at the chance to shout homophobia.

[Tom4784]

I'm completely against it as it sounds ****ing moronic. They're turning their own child into a godamn social experiment. It just all sounds like a great way to confuse and completely screw up a child in their formulative years. I just don't see any benefits to it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

we are talking about the issue in general Kizzy, not just what epople on this forum have said, and yes i have seen people on other websites that have a homophobic stance. I said SOME PEOPLE, i didn't say YOU. There are lots of people that think that homosexuals are trying to "turn kids gay" by using gender neutral parenting.

You could have made yourself clear on that then alex, Of course there is going to be those who see this as a way to spread ignorance and prejudice, that's just how it is unfortunately.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm completely against it as it sounds ****ing moronic. They're turning their own child into a godamn social experiment. It just all sounds like a great way to confuse and completely screw up a child in their formulative years. I just don't see any benefits to it.

wait, so not forcing harmful gender stereotypes on children is a social experiment? It sounds a lot more natural than forcing children into roles they don't belong in just because it's tradition.

That's basically like saying all boys should be circumcised just so they don't get made fun of in the gym locker room. Are you pro-circumcision?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I could just as easily say lots of gay people will jump at the chance to shout homophobia.

Well it's not hard to find homophobia, it's an epidemic. And the fact that you don't like people pointing it out would imply that you have an issue with homophobia yourself.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Well it's not hard to find homophobia, it's an epidemic. And the fact that you don't like people pointing it out would imply that you have an issue with homophobia yourself.

Where did I say you couldn't point it out?
I was pointing out the flip side of it, people will always find fault/something controversial with everything.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Where did I say you couldn't point it out?
I was pointing out the flip side of it, people will always find fault/something controversial with everything.

well saying epople are "screaming about homophobia" which makes it sound like a petulant child screaming makes it sound like you don't take the complaints about homophobia seriously. Like the boy who cried wolf or something.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

well saying epople are "screaming about homophobia" which makes it sound like a petulant child screaming makes it sound like you don't take the complaints about homophobia seriously. Like the boy who cried wolf or something.

The flipside of what you said was some people jump at the chance to "shout homophobia", that's the other side of what you said about people jumping at the chance to be homophobic.

Me taking these seriously or not is irrelevant to the point.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Well it's not hard to find homophobia, it's an epidemic. And the fact that you don't like people pointing it out would imply that you have an issue with homophobia yourself.

Ignorance is an epidemic alex, can you appreciate the irony in what you just did there?...