[Ammi]

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..and then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

Again as always a fair and reasoned view, with compassion in there too.Well said.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at £8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at £8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

Are you talking of just child benefit, or unemployment benefits(but including child benefit)?

I ask because the majority of people who recieve child benefit are actually in work. Its paid to anyone who has an income of below 60k

And again, if they are that set in their ways that they spend all their money on ciggies and booze, then tokens wont make the slight bit of difference as they will just sell the tokens to their friends.

That said, tokens could stop these people on good wages who just save up the child benefit in order to go on holiday with it. Those kinds of people definitely do not need it. It should only be paid to those most in need IMO.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

lots of people I know who gets child benefits smokes like a trooper in front of their kids at home. many smoke during pregnancy too... at £8 a pack thats an expensive hobby. a lot of them drink too. no sign of a proper oven either, its usually microwave meal too....theyd be better off with tokens I dont care how much it upsets the parents

..ok, that's your own personal experience and fair enough if you know lots of people who's priorities are themselves and not their children...but my experience couldn't be more different to that...there are parents like you say, I can't deny that but for me they are very much the minority..I come into contact with many families..(in the hundreds at any one time..).. through my work and I'm also aware of their circumstances and if I kind of multiply that by the amount of years I've been working then that's a lot of familes..and I can honestly say that maybe there have been a small handful of parents who haven't prioritised their children..and thought about their own needs more...

..maybe you're right and 'lots of people do' but I still don't think that 'lots' of people represents a very large percentage... as the majority are loving and nurturing parents, who try their very best.... no matter what their financial situation..this is not about upsetting parents at all..it just doesn't seem necessary and in my view is quite a demoralising thing to do....

[Ammi]

..oh and like Vicky asked..do you mean child benefits that people get for their children when they earn under a certain income..or families on income support..?...

..not everyone does 'need' their child benefit if that's what you mean...but it wasn't their decision to have it..and if the government are going to give it to them then yeah, they may put it into a uni fund or something like that..they can't be criticised for that either because they've been given something...but I think it would be better to make the income much lower and maybe increase benefits for the ones who do need it a bit more...that's something that would help..but to carry on giving it to everyone they have decided to, but then try to take away their choices on how they plan and budget is just wrong in my opinion....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..ok, that's your own personal experience and fair enough if you know lots of people who's priorities are themselves and not their children...but my experience couldn't be more different to that...there are parents like you say, I can't deny that but for me they are very much the minority..I come into contact with many families..(in the hundreds at any one time..).. through my work and I'm also aware of their circumstances and if I kind of multiply that by the amount of years I've been working then that's a lot of familes..and I can honestly say that maybe there have been a small handful of parents who haven't prioritised their children..and thought about their own needs more...

..maybe you're right and 'lots of people do' but I still don't think that 'lots' of people represents a very large percentage... as the majority are loving and nurturing parents, who try their very best.... no matter what their financial situation..this is not about upsetting parents at all..it just doesn't seem necessary and in my view is quite a demoralising thing to do....

your world seems the total opposite of mine, sorry my experience is almost 100% different

what kind of parent has 6 or 7 kids and neither works yet decides to have yet more kids? I know of some families with 9 kids, 6 dogs , no jobs and all on the benefits? at what stage does one say sorry enough is enough? at what stage does a parent have to ask themselves, can I afford to have more and more children? do I have the right to ask the rest of society work to pay for and feed and cloth this huge number fo children?

most responsible people find someone they love then consider what kind of life they can offer a child before they actually attempt to have 1 child let alone 8 or 9 children

dont these workless parents consider that an aspect of bringing up children is hard work, making it for oneself, showing the children a hard working role model?

young healthy adults have no right to a lifetime of benefits imho....they should all work if they are healthy.

often these parents cannot be questioned or advised or they soon get aggressive and violent. they all tell you how much they love their kids, well I dont believe them. is it love to smoke and swear and fight and drink in front of your kids? is it love to show them a workless household, how to live off the benefits from work done by other honest hardworking people? is if love to learn them these poor habits? what about aspirations? what about healthy living? what about work? what about ambition? education? what about an environment large enough for children to grow up properly? Im not saying you cant have love in a small house of 10 kids....but its different to 50 years ago, when a working family worked hard for pittance....these are people who dont work deliberately. they get pregnant in order to jump the queue for a free house, then to get more benefits and so on

one chap with 4 kids, a pretty hideous fellow, told me one night he had to get so smashed that night as he was being means tested the next day and needed to get such a high quantity of alcohol in his blood system to ensure he goes up a level on his benefit.....the same individual is violent, heavy drinker, cheat son his missus and well lets just say does a lot fo bad things

this is the problem we have created with this politically correct culture of dependence.....everyone things they have a right to handouts forever, with no responsibility.....they also think that by simply telling everyone theyre a great parent it means they are one. self praise is no recommendation. ask the kids what they think about living with 10 kids loads of pets in a 4 bedroomed terrace with parents who drink , smoke , dont work and no doubt dont even find the will to cook proper meals in a proper oven

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

your world seems the total opposite of mine, sorry my experience is almost 100% different

what kind of parent has 6 or 7 kids and neither works yet decides to have yet more kids? I know of some families with 9 kids, 6 dogs , no jobs and all on the benefits? at what stage does one say sorry enough is enough? at what stage does a parent have to ask themselves, can I afford to have more and more children? do I have the right to ask the rest of society work to pay for and feed and cloth this huge number fo children?

most responsible people find someone they love then consider what kind of life they can offer a child before they actually attempt to have 1 child let alone 8 or 9 children

dont these workless parents consider that an aspect of bringing up children is hard work, making it for oneself, showing the children a hard working role model?

young healthy adults have no right to a lifetime of benefits imho....they should all work if they are healthy.

often these parents cannot be questioned or advised or they soon get aggressive and violent. they all tell you how much they love their kids, well I dont believe them. is it love to smoke and swear and fight and drink in front of your kids? is it love to show them a workless household, how to live off the benefits from work done by other honest hardworking people? is if love to learn them these poor habits? what about aspirations? what about healthy living? what about work? what about ambition? education? what about an environment large enough for children to grow up properly? Im not saying you cant have love in a small house of 10 kids....but its different to 50 years ago, when a working family worked hard for pittance....these are people who dont work deliberately. they get pregnant in order to jump the queue for a free house, then to get more benefits and so on

one chap with 4 kids, a pretty hideous fellow, told me one night he had to get so smashed that night as he was being means tested the next day and needed to get such a high quantity of alcohol in his blood system to ensure he goes up a level on his benefit.....the same individual is violent, heavy drinker, cheat son his missus and well lets just say does a lot fo bad things

this is the problem we have created with this politically correct culture of dependence.....everyone things they have a right to handouts forever, with no responsibility.....they also think that by simply telling everyone theyre a great parent it means they are one. self praise is no recommendation. ask the kids what they think about living with 10 kids loads of pets in a 4 bedroomed terrace with parents who drink , smoke , dont work and no doubt dont even find the will to cook proper meals in a proper oven

..I understand what you're saying but I still feel that it's a very small percentage of people on income benefits..but if you do encounter them daily then I can see your view..but that's also going down a different path and isn't about whether vouchers would be a better route..and I still think it won't because it won't change anything for the parents and families you are referring to..they won't suddenly start prioritising their children just because they have vouchers...they'll just find another way..so I don't think it's helpful at all....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I understand what you're saying but I still feel that it's a very small percentage of people on income benefits..but if you do encounter them daily then I can see your view..but that's also going down a different path and isn't about whether vouchers would be a better route..and I still think it won't because it won't change anything for the parents and families you are referring to..they won't suddenly start prioritising their children just because they have vouchers...they'll just find another way..so I don't think it's helpful at all....

I think thats a defeatist way to approach it.....by giving it in tokens ir vouchers or the way they do it in america is with a card like a library card which can only be used to buy certain goods....this at least improves the chances of it being spent on the right things i.e. the kids.....where I live trust me this is not a minority. the fact not enough is spent on the kids, i.e. healthy foods and drinks, balanced diets etc books, education, health visits etc this has a damaging effect on every aspect of their lives.....is it coincidence in one parent britain we have massive levels of child ill health and obesity? poor diet is also related to attention deficit disorder, diabetes, behavioural issues, bi-polar disorders etc etc you herd 10 kids and dogs and workless parents into a small space and youre creating an environment of poor conditions, poor aspirations, poor health too, these kids havent even got room for their imagination. how many kids learn from their parents? about 100% of them...if theyre around workless ness, they too will become workless, if theyre around smoking and booze, they too will become smokers and boozers and develop all the health problems that come with that...is that loving parenting? No.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think it's the majority of people who spend it on alcohol, cigarettes etc though...most people on benefits that I know budget very carefully and their children are prioritised...I think it's hard enough for peope to do that though without it changing to vouchers, which seems to me like a demoralising thing to do...


..ans then Birthdays and Christmas etc and anytime parents save up for a treat for their children...so the government would decide how many vouchers to give them and how much they can spend, even if they've saved up for it and budgeted under the present scheme....take away all their choices...?...

sadly the parents are taking away all the kids choices, this is why the government and social workers sometimes have to step in....the kids come first before the egos and the selfishness of parents