[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well done to the people who have demonstrated against this obscene tax today.

As more is learned as to it, people are realising how heartless and unjust it is.
There will be much more of these demonstrations to come next year likely when the true problems of rent arrears and people being evicted start.
There will also be a great many people who will know of someone who has been badly affected and unfairly so by this tax.

Just nicely in time for the General election to follow the year after,I still say it, this bedroom tax will likely become this Coalitions poll tax.
They haven't listened, they won't listen so out they will go.

Unjust
You will find the Next 10 years Far Worse


Its a good job you ain't in Cyprus



Feck Sake Joey Wake Up

[joeysteele]

I don't live in Cyprus though arista,I live in a supposedly decent society namely the UK.

I do not though consider it just to tell people they are entitled to something and to then have them claim it and give it to them, then to come along and take it off them in part or wholly.
I can accept them being told they could not have more entitlements,I cannot though accept taking entitlements from them and decreeing they have to be worse off by having to use funds from what they were also told they had to have to live on.

It is unjust, it is heartless and the fact this policy is directed against the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable,including the sick and disabled, makes it even more unjust and heartless.

It is this gutless and heartless Govt that needs to wake up, not me and those who can see this tax is totally wrong.
It also is really certainly not worth the effort being put into it by this Govt for the pittance it will save in Govt money terms.

[arista]

Its Not a Bedroom Tax


Its a Benefit. That has to be Cut

Loads are waiting for a Room to Live in.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by arista

Its Not a Bedroom Tax


Its a Benefit. That has to be Cut

Loads are waiting for a Room to Live in.

yea but older people who may have lost parters are having to move because of this

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Its Not a Bedroom Tax


Its a Benefit. That has to be Cut

Loads are waiting for a Room to Live in.

Only the Conservatives don't call this a bedroom tax although in fact I know Conservatives councillors in my home town who do, especially the ones who hate it themselves and are learning of the problems it is going to bring.
Lib Dem councillors certainly call it the bedroom tax.The Govt doesn't want it called that because it exposes how rotten and sinister this policy is.

There are not the properties available of one bedroomed flats,bungalows or houses for anything near the number of people who will have to pay this tax.
It is an absolute disgrace to be even considering cutting this benefit when they don't even have the properties for the people to go into.

It is not the most vulnerables fault that they have had to come to rely on housing benefit, of course some abuse the system just as many at the top end abuse the income tax system too on a far larger scale financially.
Many of the people affected by this will be sick and disabled and a great many of those will have worked for decades in their lives paying their taxes for these entitlements too.

It is a rotten, gutless policy with not an ounce of compassion in it and as it unfoldes over this year and next, it will I am convinced see this Govt out on its ear in 2015 and deservedly so too.

Even reducing the % that people would lose under this policy would be a start, will they do that, no they will not.
This is both heartless and discimination too, because there is no penalty for those under occupying council housing who have a job and don't claim housing beneit it is only targeted at the unfortunates who now have to rely on housing benefit which is now being taken away from them.

A pathetic,cowardly and rotten policy from any Govt that has been enacted in the UK.
Unbelievable,to me anyway, anyone could really defend it in the form it is being enforced in.

Anyway I have said enough as to this policy, I would be ahsmamed to have any part of this policy myself.
However I will watch and see the rent arrears rise and then people get evicted for not being able to pay the rent and this extra tax.
As those evictions come and neighbours,friends and family of the evicted see the heartless damage it will cause then the demonstrations that have been against it so far will seem like nothing.

Labour must be ringing its hands with glee that the Govt haven't ditched this policy.
For me though, sadly it's peoples lives and status that is being undermined through nothing that they themselves have done wrong at all, just the massive failure of Govts of both parties really failing over the last 30 years to properly address the housing shortages.

[arista]

Yes Conservatives know the Truth

Its not a Bedroom Tax.

Its a Benefit. That Will be Cut - Times are Hard

Loads are waiting for a Room to Live in.


30% of labour voters say it Right.

So your "Glee"
is lost

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Conservatives know the Truth

Its not a Bedroom Tax.

Its a Benefit. That Will be Cut - Times are Hard

Loads are waiting for a Room to Live in.

Well it's a policy that has turned me 100% and a fair number of my family who have before, from even thinking of voting Conservative in 2015.
Not the only issue, the NHS is another major problem for us with the Conservatives.

I stress again though, they should have made sure they had the one bedroomed and 2 bedroomed properties needed to house these people they are taking money off now before they even thought of bringing in this absurd policy.It is the Govts of the last 30 years who are to blame for those people needing bigger houses not the people at the lower end of the scale.
Do you actually think it right to batter the most vulnerable this way, I certainly don't and I never will.

Stll, I am finding 'soft' Conservative voters from 2010 very worried as to this policy now. They are also near furious with David Cameron for not thinking things through better on it too and not just on this issue but on many other policies too.

[arista]

"fair number"


many of those - may not even vote


As Labour is staying in this Cut back way


Alot can change in 2 years
so you have no idea but what you think

[joeysteele]

Well, that's all any of us have arista really,what we think.
In those 2 years though, the effects of the further cuts still to come plus the real devastating effects of this bedroom tax will filter through by the end of this year and all through next as that is likely when the court cases for rent arrears and evictions begin.

The main problems with the ongoing NHS reforms will also likely hit waiting lists and further problems will occur there in the NHS too.
The growth forecasts have all been heavily downgraded again in the recent statement from the Chancellor, all independent sources are it seems stating that people will be worse off in 2015 than they were in 2010.

The deficit reduction policy from 2010 will be nowhere near what the Govt said it would have to be by 2015.
No one but this Govt to blame for that not working.
They argued the severe cuts were needed in the first year because it wasn't known what could happen in the Eurozone.

Teachers are now getting ready to be at loggerheads with this Govt and the Police still have no faith in the current Home secretary.

I may not know what will be the situation as to the result of the next general election but this Govt is far from looking a good bet to win now in 2015, the Lib Dems are still at best on half the votes they got last time, the Conservatives have never even reached over 35% in any poll for well over a year now,as they could only barely do in the 2010 election anyway even after that chaos and gaffe ridden campaign by the Labour party.

I really don't believe the vast majority of voters like to see the weakest hit by the strongest, as this bedroom tax kicks in, I really believe this Govt will be held in contempt by the voters of this policy for doing just that.
I and indeed you, know nothing for sure, however I do have great faith in the voters of this Country and I have faith they will really turn, once the effects are seen as to the devastation of a great many of the most vulnerable peoples lives through this Govt and this bedroom tax policy.

A lot can change in 2 years as you say, something you said earlier was things will be bad for the next 10 years so in that case,I cannot myself see anything positive coming to help the Conservatives get anywhere near an overall majority in 2015, in fact I would go as far as to say they will be a fair way away from even being the largest party then too.

At the very least,I believe there will likely be a Labour govt in coalition with the Lib Dems.
The Lib Dems then doing their usual turncoat trick and voting to repeal a lot of what they strongly supported in this Coalition.

Although it is more likely the voters will give Labour an overall majority. The problem for the voters last time was Gordon Brown,yet even then the Conservatives could only add 3.5% to their vote from 2005 and finish on only 36%.
In fact the Conservatives only added about 5.5% to their vote in the whole 13 years from 1997 while they were in opposition.
If the country had doubts about them then, they will be even more careful to avoid helping them to an overall majority in 2015.
A different leader and Labour could have grabbed another 15 seats at least likely.

Anyway arista, we are never going to agree on this issue, I do feel though I can be almost 100% sure that this bedroom tax and the effects of it will do absolutely nothing to help this Govt,nothing at all and I do hope it does become their poll tax.

[arista]

"Anyway arista, we are never going to agree on this issue, I do feel though I can be almost 100% sure that this bedroom tax and the effects of it will do absolutely nothing to help this Govt,nothing at all and I do hope it does become their poll tax. "


Sure
But this is no Poll Tax

Its a benefit for some
that is Being Cut.



Do not get stuck in Hype

[arista]

"I believe there will likely be a Labour govt in coalition with the Lib Dems."


You having a Laugh
Ed has Refused to work with Nick

Thats from Todays News
Labour wants to be alone - the stupid feckers


"900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-of-tests.html


That says a Great Deal about New Labours Feck Up

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"I believe there will likely be a Labour govt in coalition with the Lib Dems."


You having a Laugh
Ed has Refused to work with Nick

Thats from Todays News
Labour wants to be alone - the stupid feckers


"900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-of-tests.html

That says a Great Deal about New Labours Feck Up

If Labour don't get an overall majority but if they can manage to govern with the likes of the SDLP from N.Ireland they won't likely need the Lib Dems anyway.
If they did though, Miliband will not need to worry as to working with Nick Clegg, Clegg will resign as leader as soon as it is clear the Lib Dems have lost seats heavily and that is if he even manages to hold his own seat in Sheffield Hallam.

Plenty in the Lib Dems want Clegg gone,he will likely be off to Europe very soon after the 2015 election,in fact many of his party wish he would go sooner.

As to the above as to benefits,If that is the case, then good that so many have come off benefits, I don't deny there are people who are on benefits who shouldn't be, there will always be some who abuse the system.
The vast majority don't, I find it amazing when those at the lower end of the scale on benefits get demonised by the Conservatives and some of their supporters while little is said about Companies who 'fiddle' against paying VAT, and also high earners who manage to avoid paying due taxes.

Poeple get a part time job, some keep claiming benefits,all of which are maybe not what they are entitled to, likely for a time,I don't agree with that.

I have absolutely no problem with any Govt looking for people who abuse the system, I do have a massive problem and contempt for any Govt that would demonise and punish people who don't and never have abused the benefits entitlements they have though.

As to the bit in bold, well this Govt is doing an even better job of that than Labour did now in my view and I never ever believed I would actually be saying that someday.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by arista

"I believe there will likely be a Labour govt in coalition with the Lib Dems."


You having a Laugh
Ed has Refused to work with Nick

Thats from Todays News
Labour wants to be alone - the stupid feckers


"900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-of-tests.html


That says a Great Deal about New Labours Feck Up

Not really, since it was thatcher that stuck loads of people onto sickness benefits to massage the unemployment figures.

Yes, labour should have done something about it during their time in power, but they didnt cause this, unfortunately for you

Also, personally I am highly dubious about the 90k figure. I cant see 90k people just not bothering to even attend their medical.

[Kizzy]

I agree that we have to find social housing for people who are desperate for them, however I do NOT feel this is the correct way to free up housing. And in most cases it won't it just penalises those who are elderly, disabled and or vulnerable.
Why are more social housing not being constructed?
Why are the social housing stock we have not adequately maintained?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I agree that we have to find social housing for people who are desperate for them, however I do NOT feel this is the correct way to free up housing. And in most cases it won't it just penalises those who are elderly, disabled and or vulnerable.
Why are more social housing not being constructed?
Why are the social housing stock we have not adequately maintained?

Also, why has the right to buy scheme not been abolished. Since thats part of what got us into this mess in the first place.

Would have been grand if everytime someone bought their council house, another was built. But it hasnt ended up like that. Yet the stock is STILL being sold off and none built to replace it.

This money they are now throwing at people to buy houses (which people can use to buy second homes too)...they should be using it to build more social housing instead IMO.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also, why has the right to buy scheme not been abolished. Since thats part of what got us into this mess in the first place.

Would have been grand if everytime someone bought their council house, another was built. But it hasnt ended up like that. Yet the stock is STILL being sold off and none built to replace it.

This money they are now throwing at people to buy houses (which people can use to buy second homes too)...they should be using it to build more social housing instead IMO.

Absolutely,100% agreement from me as to that point too.

[Kizzy]

Excellent point vicky, can't believe I forgot about this, it is exactly what happened when the right to buy scheme was introduced lots of people bought their council home, many lost their jobs not long after and the repossesion rates in the very early 90's soared...
Why would they want to replicate that?...

[Vicky.]

LOL this keeps getting better and better

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...om-tax-1795785

PAEDOPHILES and rapists will dodge the bedroom tax while poverty-hit families face homelessness.

A shocking loophole in the Con-Dem welfare cuts, which come into force today, could mean thousands of sex offenders being exempt.

[Kizzy]

Social analysts are concerned that deprivation levels are going back to those of 30 years ago, with the poorest families worse off than they were under Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s.Debt and food poverty are growing, homelessness is increasing, and demand on food banks is soaring – a sign of more people falling through the welfare net. The social impact of this impoverishment of Britain's poorest families – with more than 60% of such households in work – will unravel recent achievements in tackling poverty, say campaigners. According to Alison Garnham, chief executive of the CPAG, the coalition "is on course to leave behind the worst child poverty record of any government for a generation".

Others see the welfare agenda as presaging a profound shift in the relationship between the state and its most vulnerable citizens. "Last year I warned that we risk a decade of destitution. Some thought I was being over-dramatic," says Julia Unwin, head of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. "I am more convinced than ever that we have a perfect storm brewing; the reforms to welfare, the economic slowdown and spiralling costs, together with an increasingly spiteful tone in how we describe people in poverty, risks the UK becoming a nation where people face destitution."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...-cap-tottenham

[arista]

Yes Kizzy
But this is Not a Bedroom Tax
Its a Benefit that Half of Labour and Conservative (Workers)
say must stop.

New Labour did not build massive Housing in there massive long 13 years
so as a result - spare rooms will be used or paid for.

There are many cases which will not be in this
Medical reasons. This takes time to sort.


Life In The Fast Lane

[joeysteele]

Bedroom tax, under occupancy of social housing charge,(only being discriminately applied to the vulnerable having to claim benefit though).
Whatever you call it, is going to take money away every week from the people who can least afford to have money taken off them.
As I and others try to keep pointing out, as do local authorities,Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem ones,there are not the smaller properties available to move all these people into anyway,however those who cannot move, even if they wanted to, still have to pay this money extra every week.

What a ridiculous thing to do to anyone in any circumstances, to say you have to pay this charge/tax even if they have nowhere else smaller for you to go, there is no way to avoid doing so from today.
Like many other policies over the last 3 years, this is one of the daftest and most heartless yet.

Lib Dems are starting to run scared on it now, time that gutless and heartless politician IDS, already a massively failed politician at that, was forced to ditch this rotten idea once and for all.
What he is doing planning incomes and livelihoods is beyond me anyway,even his own party didn't trust him with theri future as leader.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Kizzy
But this is Not a Bedroom Tax
Its a Benefit that Half of Labour and Conservative (Workers)
say must stop.

New Labour did not build massive Housing in there massive long 13 years
so as a result - spare rooms will be used or paid for.

There are many cases which will not be in this
Medical reasons. This takes time to sort.


Life In The Fast Lane

What would you call it, If you object to that term that has been adopted by the majority of the UK and is entirely apt?
Time? that is the one thing the elderlly and the disabled do not have while the government flounder around attempting to bash a square peg into a round hole.
Build more social housing... that is the only viable option here it would tick so many boxes and be of the greatest benefit, Why do we have town planners?
villages could be erected reasonably cheaply now with the advances in prefabricated housing.
Who will this model they have implemented benefit?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What would you call it, If you object to that term that has been adopted by the majority of the UK and is entirely apt?
Time? that is the one thing the elderlly and the disabled do not have while the government flounder around attempting to bash a square peg into a round hole.
Build more social housing... that is the only viable option here it would tick so many boxes and be of the greatest benefit, Why do we have town planners?
villages could be erected reasonably cheaply now with the advances in prefabricated housing.
Who will this model they have implemented benefit?

No Left wingers call it that

Its a Benefit Stop.


"villages could be erected reasonably cheaply now "
Yes I agree 100%.

Housing can be built fast nowdays
and also why did New Labour not Build
them in their massive long 13 years

[arista]

Yes Joey it will take money or homes
of Council housing people.

But thats the way it is going.

No one has a safe job
even in banking

Times are hard

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by arista

No Left wingers call it that

Its a Benefit Stop.


"villages could be erected reasonably cheaply now "
Yes I agree 100%.

Housing can be built fast nowdays
and also why did New Labour not Build
them in their massive long 13 years

Its called that in the right wing rags too. Its just wording.

Apparently its proper name is 'the spare room subsidy'. According to Cameron.

But who cares what people call it, whatever its name..it is unfair and has not been thought through well at all...